Zylka’s 95 theses on why Civilization 3 is an utter disappointment.

[Tarquelne]

Originally posted by Zylka
You haven't complimented any of my in depth explanations, just picked on a few which I hadn't specified. Thanks for coming out, better luck next time.

Ok fine.

"Good job, Zylka! I think you're usually wrong, and I have generally said why, and I'd perfer that you actully respond in kind, rather than ask for and/or give out compliments."

And, btw - I think if you read over my message again I said "for example" when I was talking about extreme statements/assumptions. It's not supposed to be a representative list of all your points. Just the worst.

[Tarquelne]

Originally posted by Zylka


I was responding to someone who argued that the polls offered support for this being a good game, not giving you an opportunity to come out of left field and nitpick.

Sorry, sorry: You're both fools.

However, I think you'll find that civman was pointing to the poll simply to demonstrate the flaws of trying to use "the majority agrees with me" argument. That's why I responded to your message and not civman's.

[Ming]

Originally posted by Tarquelne
Sorry, sorry: You're both fools.

And what part of NO MORE PERSONAL INSULTS do you not understand!

You can chill for 24 hours to think about what NO MORE means.
Have a nice day

[Ethelred]

"Could have been" suggests "could have been good, but it wasn't". Does it get any simpler?

There were five choices. Only one single choice was complimentary in any way towards the game. If you read the comments you will see some people thought that second choice was equivalent to 'good but could use improvement' which would have been a reasonable second choice. Instead it was deceptively negative. The only question about that choice is whether it was badly written or just plain devious.

It was not only a non-random poll it was a very badly written poll. The POLL needs a patch. Also it doesn't help that someone is trying to sabatoge it. Imortal Wombat to be precise.

Frankly almost every poll I have seen here has had severly flawed wording. Well some weren't flawed they were satires and were supposed to be that way. This one I am not sure on. I think the author blew it but maybe it was deliberately bogus.

[SpencerH]

Originally posted by Ethelred


There were five choices......

I believe this was meant for another thread n'est pas?

[Aendolin]

All I have to say is don't mess with the Beatles (ESPECIALLY John Lennon!)

Lame cult classic? Please..

Otherwise, I'm afraid I have to agree with most of Zylka's observations (if not his presentation..)

[Ethelred]

Originally posted by SpencerH


I believe this was meant for another thread n'est pas?

No it was meant for Zylka on this very thread. He was trying to use that badly written poll to bolster his claims of constituting a majority. Hence making it relevant to the discusion.

Not that relevance is endemic to this thread. More like an occasional breakout where the vaccine has not been used.

[Aeson]

1. Collectors Edition.

Limited Edition:

I was able to purchase mine for the same price as the normal version. Of course this means I think the packaging was a good deal.

Designer Notes:

I really wouldn't have cared if they were there or not. There is a piece of writing from (judging by the names at the bottom) Sid Meier and Jeff Briggs. Not that I even read it.

Tech Poster:

I love clear, consice information. I hate things on my walls. I like the size of the "poster", even if it isn't a poster. The graphic alignment on mine is just about perfect.

Shattered Expectations:

I think the game could have been done better, but it doesn't mean my expectations were "shattered" or anything close to it. I highly doubt that any of my thoughts or feelings on the subject would take up much room in the tin. All the grey matter in my head would probably fit nicely into the tin, I'm not in a rush to do any definitive testing though.


2. Bugs.

Overly Horrendous:

I've had the game crash a total of 6 times on me. In several hundred hours of gameplay. Yes I have no life, back on subject! Most of the non critical bugs are easily avoided. Gameplay issues with features intentionally included are not bugs. The only bug that bothered me at all was the pathfinding one, it slowed down my system rather nicely. Nothing horrendous in my opinion.

Programmers who suck:

Writing a game as complex as Civ III for the numerous system configurations out there is no small task. I've seen bugs introduced with a simple "hello world" text function. You can't make code which will work with every hardware configuration. It just isn't going to happen. As someone who dabbles in programming, I have nothing but respect for the work done in Civ III.


3. Multiplayer.

Upon release:

Was any Civ game ever released with multiplayer? I dislike the capitalistic approach of releasing things like this in an expansion pack as much as anyone. If people are willing to pay seperately for it, that is their right though. It's the way our economy works.

People in their right mind:

I wouldn't say I'm in my right mind, but I wouldn't have waited anyways. Did you buy Civ III without multiplayer too?


4. Scenarios.

Lack thereof:

It would have been nice to have included I agree. If they are protecting their investment in an XP, that is their right. Whether it is the best move for them or not depends on how many boxes they sell.


5. Maps.

20 minutes:

Maybe if there was a mini-map in the editor! I do agree that the maps included were lacking in quality. It would take much more than 20 minutes to create them though.

Lazy or Incompetent:

User's will create the maps anyways. I don't want the design team wasting whatever precious time they have on this. Better to not have included any maps.


6. Editor.

Lack of:

It's there. Somewhat functional. I agree that a better editor would be nice. Not many games include any sort of editor though. Usually that is left up to the player community.


7. Windowed Games.

Performance:

Games running in windows are much slower. If they had a preference to run in a window I certainly wouldn't use it.

Stability:

I have never experienced a crash while using other programs with Civ III. Often I come online to post while one of my "milked" games is processing the automated workers. Civ III runs nicely in the background.

Alt-Tab:

I just use the windows key, works like a charm. There is a shortcut for it if you don't have the proper keyboard. I'm too lazy to look it up, as I have the key.


8. Patches.

Frequency:

About every other month so far. Not bad considering they are most likely working on an expansion. The only problem I've had with the patches is 1.17f tech trading. I prefer patches which are worked on, not just rushed out.


9. Speed.

System Specs:

1.33GHz T-bird/512MB RAM/Radeon 8500. Only the pathfinding bug on Huge maps slowed things down for me. If you have a problem with a "hot rod" system, it probably is a driver issue. Just interested in what you feel a "hot rod" system is?


10. Terrain Colors.

Water:

It looks good to me. Different colors of water can be seen around the world. Graphics aren't that important. I'd rather see them focus on gameplay issues than spend all that extra time coming up with thousands of "realistic" terrain tiles.

Mountains:

I like them. Have you ever been to Zion National Park? I love red rock deserts. Also many southeast asian mountains look similar.


11. Mountains.

Unrealistic Form:

There are mountains which look like this. Which mountains would you have had them include? I like the change of pace from "normal" mountains.


12. Caveman Animation.

Wasted Time:

I doubt it took very much time away from other developments. I agree that the time could have been better spent elsewhere. But perhaps the graphic design artists had finished their work. I don't wan't an artist coding the AI or anything like that.


13. 3D Advisors and Leaders.

Wasted Work:

Again, I wouldn't want the artists coding the game. Graphics are just a matter of taste. I really don't care what they look like.

Marketability:

If it sells better, why shouldn't they do it? The whole reason they are working is to make money. It would be nice if they designed a game specifically for me, but I really wouldn't buy enough copies to keep them in business. I'd rather they make a game which sells well and keeps them in business. Otherwise I don't have Civ IV to look forward too.


14. Joan.

Sexed up Civ:

I don't really find it sexy in the least. I doubt that was the intention. Look at games like Everquest if you want to see how a gaming company makes money off of sexing things up.


15. Modern Resource Graphics.

Garbage Dump:

I barely even notice the terrain graphics. As I've said earlier, it's better to focus on gameplay issues. Perhaps the work done with the "goofy" 3d characters could have been better spent here. It's a matter of taste either way, and not one I have a strong opinion about.


16. Firing Nukes.

Animation:

I haven't seen it yet. There is a problem here, but it isn't the animation as far as I know. If you don't like how they look, don't fire them. They aren't required for gameplay.


17. Loser Screen.

Stupid:

Some of the sayings are borderline funny. It obviously didn't take much time to do. You really shouldn't be rewarded for being the "loser" though. A complaint about the winners screens would be in order, as they are the exact same, with different leader quotes.


18. Evolution Tower of Babel.

What we paid for:

Civ III could have been a text based game. Perhaps that is what you are looking for? The graphics aren't a big deal, but having some graphics is required.


19. Naval Firing Animations.

Melodramatic:

With such small graphic representations some overly dramatic animations are in order. There is a lot of recoil from these big guns, and boats don't have the most stable of foundations now do they?

Market's Idiots:

If these are the majority of paying customers, then marketing to them would be a sound business decision. Not a piece of crap descision. I think the unit animations are nicely done in Civ III, and I have them all turned off. It wouldn't matter what they looked like, they would all be turned off. If your boat's rocking too much for your tastes, I suggest you do the same. It really speeds up gameplay too.


20. Civilization Colors.

Easter Egg:

A matter of taste.


21. City Form.

Graphics:

I suppose this is where you wish the graphic designers had spent their time? I like the cities simple. Another matter of taste.


22. Corruption.

Realism:

The farther away from a policing influence, the higher corruption will be. This doesn't have to be a purely distance thing, but for simplicity of gameplay that is how it is represented.

Pathetically Obvious Overlay Fix:

Corruption seems to be an intended feature of the game. I'm sure you realize how much easier the tech rate could be adjusted by changing the required beakers per tech. I'm assuming you mean the tech rate by "high timeline speed". If not I appologize.

23. Culture and Reversion.

Immingration/Emigration:

I don't think this is what they were aiming for. Population movement is more a function of food and work availability. A city "starves" and the citizens leave. A city "grows" as citizens join it. Birth rates and actual starvation of course play their role. Culture in Civ III deals more with territory. A civilization with more culture has it's influence expanded.

Drooling Moron:

The consumer doesn't need to understand the code. The programmer does. The complexity of the code used to implement culture does not affect marketability directly, but it does affect system performance and the number of bugs present.

24. AI Cheats.

Admission:

I don't see how this is an issue? The advantages given to the AI are published in the editor. Soren has freely admitted that the AI can "see" the entire map, uncovered or not.


25. AI Exploitation.

Military:

Unless you want your "hot rod" system to take days to process turns, the AI is going to be exploitable. To run at any decent speed, an AI needs simple rules to function upon. Once the player deduces those rules they can take advantage of knowing the AI's response to a given action. The AI in Civ III is better than in any of the previous Civ games.


26. Trade.

Smart People:

Where are the polls on this? I don't always want more options, I doubt anyone does. I like the fact that I don't have to send a caravan to each individual city. I also like the fact that I don't have to tell each citizen in each city what job to do each turn. Does that make me dumb?

Hour Lunch Break:

Did it take you more than an hour to come up with your idea?


27. Domestic Nag

Kill, Murder, Destroy, Gone:

I agree completely. A preference to turn her off would be in order though. Some people enjoy the reminders.


28. War Weariness.

Government Collapse:

I have had a Government Collapse 2 times in Civ III, despite almost constant warmongering in all my games. Both times were the first 2 times I tried to switch to a Democracy. I usually stay away from a Democracy, but have successfully waged wars while in one since then. A government will collapse if its leaders are inept. You are the leader, keep it from collapsing.


29. Terra-forming.

Limited:

Irrigation, building Roads, and Railroads are, or require, terra-forming. There is already a "limited" amount of it. What specifically did you want to be added? Remember that each tile is representative of thousands of square miles. I always found terra-forming options (raise, lower terrain, change climate, ect.) in the other Civ games one of the most unrealistic features.


30. ICS.

Horrible Necessity:

I have won many many games of Civ III without using ICS. It does make the game a bit easier, but you don't have to do it. Also it is less effective than in earlier Civ games.

REX:

REX should be a no brainer. If you expand rapidly, you will expand faster than if you don't. If you want to take your time and settle in "perfect" city sites, go ahead. It might slow down expansion a little bit, but doesn't make the game unplayable.

Immediate Necessity:

OCC games have been won on Deity. This would seem to refute you. If you are going for score, of course bigger should be better.

31. Ship AA.

Minor AA:

Ships cannot be sunk by aircraft, which is pretty damn good defense if you ask me. I agree that Naval vs. Air warfare needs some changes though.


32. Resources.

Availability:

If a resource is as widely abundant as aluminum, then a civilization should have the ability to claim some. Resources aren't indicative of any deposit, just "good" ones. Many modern day countries rely on importing various resources. Many areas of the world are rich in a resource.

Multiplayer Application:

They haven't released MP yet, but you claim that the concept of resources are poorly executed. For all we know they plan to release MP with a resource switch, making all units available regardless of resources. Even if they don't, it shouldn't be hard to create balanced maps for MP games. Any random map is going to give an advantage somewhere, regardless of resources.


Ouch my hand hurts from typing!

I may or may not finish this later.

[Zylka]

Originally posted by Ethelred


No it was meant for Zylka on this very thread. He was trying to use that badly written poll to bolster his claims of constituting a majority. Hence making it relevant to the discusion.

Not that relevance is endemic to this thread. More like an occasional breakout where the vaccine has not been used.

Warlord - Mar 2002

[bigvic]

check this out

Its amazing how far one can go w/o realizing somthing obvious, then feel kind of stupid when you get an answer. Happened to me when I asked on one of the help threads, after a mild flame session, how the h*ll they disigned this freakin game w/o any way to end right of passage agreements - then got a very curt answer, fealt like a moron. Good thing I can laugh at myself. Anyhoos, check out the thread, "What IS it". (general) I cracked up.

[bigvic]

Hey, Hot chick avatar again!

I just saw it change! Cool! Who the hell was that guy you had? Chics much better. Did a moderater make you take booby girl off? A couple or three hundred posts and maybe I can post a semi-nudy avatar of my hot-yet-evil ex-wife. On the other hand...

[Reprisal]

Funny how Zylka points out Ethelred's time on Apolyton rather than addressing the issues at hand. Being around longer does not make you an elite internet ninja...

More on topic, I still play CivIII, and get as much enjoyment as I do from playing Day of Defeat. A totally different type of enjoyment, but enjoyment nontheless...

[Zylka]

Hey I grew up in Parksville!

[Ethelred]

Originally posted by Zylka


Warlord - Mar 2002

Yes and that has relevance in what way?

Obviously you are completely without a way to counter what I said. Thank you for making it so clear.

[Zylka]

No, I gave up on you a long time ago.

Newbie much?