Hurry up and release 1.18! I can't take the AI's tech trading any more!

[ACooper]

Destroyed the game! You got to be kidding.

The is the latest hot issue, like "group movement" was before the patch. It seems to me that most of you have no experience with Civ games or are so caught up in hearing yourself rant and cry that you know nothing about the game or the game's history.

Soren has stated concerns about this "tech whoring" since the release of the patch. (and before actually) It is being looked at. Probably will be some fix to make the AI trade techs a little less aggressively in the future patch(es). Until then, get over it, it can be managed and when you get in the industrial ages you can catch up and pass all of the AI civs.

If I see one more post on how "Firaxis ruined the game." I'll go nuts. (Probably get banned).

Seriously, if you can't handle it, play something else.

[Zouave]

Originally posted by ACooper
Destroyed the game! You got to be kidding.

The is the latest hot issue, like "group movement" was before the patch. It seems to me that most of you have no experience with Civ games or are so caught up in hearing yourself rant and cry that you know nothing about the game or the games history.

Soren has stated concerns about this "tech whoring" since the release of the patch. (and before actually) It is being looked at. Probably will be some fix to make the AI trade techs a little less aggressively in the future patch(es). Until then get over it it can be managed and when you get in the industrial ages you can catch up and pass all of the AI civs.

If I see one more post on how "Firaxis ruined the game." I'll go nuts. (Probably get banned).

Seriously, if you can't handle it, play something else.

Word.

[Evil_Eric_4]

Glad to hear that they realise their mistake, Arrian, but when they get to the point where they have to fix their fixes I have to wonder.

I mean it seems there is a lack of commitment.
It has been taking a LONG time between patches and even then the patches break as many things as they fix.

It seems they are sending out the patches with as little playtesting as the original game itself!

How many people are working on this I wonder?
Two retards and a chimp?

[Ming]

ACooper


Oh... and try not to get banned

[MiloMilo]

Most everything about this game now looks good to me, except for some SERIOUS AI propblems. Here's what I'd like to see fixed in 1.18, or in a mod maybe (thought I don't know if it's possible to tweak the AI in mods):

1) Cancel this terrible AI tech-trading nonsense. I like this game in large part because I'm playing against seven (or fifteen) different opponents. The other nations should be as wary of each other as they are of me. Militarily this is well-implemented. Now I'd like to see the same good implementation with scientific advancment.

2) Pop-rushing is an exploit, and if Firaxis wants to limit players' ability to do it, fine. But at least program the AI to not hamstring itself under communism. If it makes citizens unhappy for 40 turns, just program the AI to only do it once per five citizens in a city, per 40 turns. Or something. You want the AI to be flexible like a human player, but you also want it to be smart, and smart means eliminating some options that are available to flexible but dumb people.

3) Yes, I want the AI to be aggressively expansionist, but it annoys me when they always build cities in that last little pocket of land on the other side of my borders. When this city flips to me ten turns later due to culture, it's gratifying but still annoying that an opponent would be so wasteful with their resources. Can't there be a guidline such that for the first eight or ten cities, the AI will attempt to place new cities to be contiguous with their existing border, and then branch out? (This would reflect their ability to now build the Forbidden Palace - even if they never build it. Which brings me to the last one--)

4) The AI should build more improvements, and fewer military units. Just shift this balance a little bit. In peacetime the AI should not have more units than it can handle; cities should build either improvements or wealth. In wartime, make this limit arbitrarily higher: say, +2 units per city. Then for each one unit that dies, increase this limit by 2, showing the need to muster more soldiers if the nation gets put on the defensive. When peace is declared go back the peacetime limits, possibly recycling extra units.

I know much of seems like it would restrict the AI and make it easier for humans to outwit it. But in the end that's how these games should be played anyway. Consider casino backjack. The dealer must always play the same way, while the players can strategize creatively. This gives them an advantage, but it's still a fun game and people still lose quite often.

[Captain]

here we go again... I see this possibly devolving into another flamefest...

but to those who aren't too emotionally involved in the game to realize that it is a game and that you can do other things with your life, here's my 2 cents.

1. tech devaluation should be slowed and capped at a minimum so there's no more buying techs for 1 gold.

2. AI should NOT sell you things when they're "furious" at you. Make them hold a grudge.

Example:
In my latest game, I'm the Romans and I've taken over the Germans and the Egyptians (except the Egyptians ran away to a 1 city island and I have yet to build a caravel). I own the biggest continent and offensive military. I also used my golden age to mass produce culture and improvements, so I'm finally in 2nd place (way behind Japan). Japanese and Russians kept trying to grab bits of my continent that my borders hadn't taken yet (they have now). I've betrayed the Germans and Egyptians a dozen times (that was a tough war), and recently trashed two Japanese cities and declared war on Russia. Immediately after getting peace with Japan (I couldn't reach him but I kept killing all his landers), I buy three techs right off him! He didn't sell me gunpowder (good!) but he sold me his other 3? I couldn't threaten him, but I could buy the techs? Ridiculous. He shouldn't be so ready to sell to someone with my reputation. Doesn't he realize selling me techs just gives me the means to kick the crap out of his uber-culture continent ?

And he doesn't even demand outrageous amounts of money. I think I spent at most 200g for 3 techs. Pocket change!

(Does his reputation factor in? Cuz the Japnese and Russians both have crappy reps.)

[Captain]

hmm, while I was writing that, cooler posters prevailed.

MiloMilo, great points! Firaxis, please stop the AI from crippling itself.

A bit of nitpicking though... the AI isn't just overly ready to trade with each other, they even trade with human players who are their biggest threat. See my post above.

Also, what about AI combat? Sometimes it does wonky things.
Never mind, I'll post a new thread about it.

[Ming]

Originally posted by Captain
here we go again... I see this possibly devolving into another flamefest...

NO... It won't... because the first person that starts it will be toast. And anybody that continues it will also be toast.

IT'S THAT SIMPLE!!!

IS MY MESSAGE CLEAR TO EVERYBODY!!!!!!!

[jackshot]

Sorry, no sympathy from me. These are but some of the problems, and Firaxis put them there. Perhaps instead of being aware of the problems they should be aware of the need to put out a finished product in the first place.

Six months later and the game is still a pile of mistakes upon mistakes. Six months later and all we can say is that they haven't quit yet - sometimes I wish they would go and leave the field to someone who actually wants to do something interesting and exciting with the franchise. I've read their comments too, and they all have this "making up as we go" quality - they have no plan that shows in any work to date. If you were a publisher, would you accept this title without Sid's name on it?

Let's face it, at this rate Firaxis is going to have problems having a finshed, quality product version of what was released last Christmas in place by this Christmas.

For any price.

[kimmygibler]

Does this seem logical to anyone...

Make it so that you and the ai have some incentive to research tech rather than trade for it. The obvious thing would be a culture bonus for development of your own tech. No bonus if you acquire it through trade.

Would this be too hard for firaxis? Is it a good idea? Would it solve the problem?

In the current game it is unrealistic as well. Once the zulus develop writing, next turn zulu is the universal language. Every other civ simply uses the zulu writing due to trading. I know the game currently has no concept of this idea, but it might solve the problem if the ai had some reason to avoid trading for at least some techs.

I can see things like gunpowder really make no difference culturally. But alphabet, literature, philosophy, writing, monarchy, republic, music theory, free artistry, even contruction....

[ACooper]

Gibler

Great idea. Two types of techs. Culture techs could not be traded or at least the value jacked up really high.

Once again - great idea.

[kimmygibler]

Thanks, but could this be done in a patch???
Or rather, is there a hope in hell that it will be done?


Also, I wouldn't say that you can't trade techs, just that you don't get any culture bonus unless you research them yourself.

[ACooper]

I imagine it would require a rewrite of several areas of code. Like assigning a culture points value to each "cultural" tech and adding that to the culture total (as a 1 time culture bonus?). Also you would have to have the ai recognize these techs as more desirable to research than trade for.

It's not alot of work if it was done from the start, but without knowing how the game was coded it may or may not be too much work for a patch. That would have to be a cost/benifit decision made by Firaxis.

I do think you should bring the suggestion to their attention.

[Capt Dizle]

I used to think that the game was poorly designed but its more than that. It's also a lack of time and testing.

Heck the game was a beta on release and the patches were rushed to boot. I'd say let them work on it till Christmas. Which is when the developement cycle should have ended in the first place.

I know I won't test another patch. Been there, done that.

[Capt Dizle]

And I agree with Cooper in his reaction to Egyptian's statement that the patch DESTROYED the game. I think DESTROYED is too harsh and a bit inaccurate considering the sorry state the game was in with v1.16.

Clearly, in v1.17f the combination of zero value tech and AI self induced starvation BROKE the game, but only in the sense that a zombie, run over by a fleet of trucks would be messier looking than when first untombed, but still dead in either case.