No room for civility any more?

[Dienstag]

...can't read this whole thread so-far and not respond...

ALL YOU *BLEEP* *BLEEPIN'* *BLEEPERS* CAN JUST go...umm...

Nah, nevermind, I like being civil too. Actually I strive for it. (Just in case someone got the wrong impression, the above *bleepin'* line was meant to be humorous. You can laugh now, if you like...)


##This is the part of the post where I try to be productive:##

I've seen a few possible explanations mentioned in this thread about why the level of civility seems to have gone down. (I agree. It used to be better than this.) Here's my quickly compiled list of causes, and some suggestions for possible solutions. This isn't going to be perfect so bring on the comments.

[listofstuffandsuggestions]

1. There are way more people in the forums these days, therefore more trolls, etc...

solution: can't think of anything other than a massive banning campaign, which is not very appealing to me. Otherwise, just cope.

2. [opinion?] CivIII is lacking in strategic depth and replayabilty, therefore positive, focused conversation is less prevalent. [fact]Rants, and repetative newbie questions make up higher percentage of threads. To rephrase in techno-jargon: The signal-to-noise ratio is lower.

solution: possibly, those who really care can try to make more/better discussions about those aspects of the game that haven't been discussed to death yet, even if that means somewhat more effort to find those topics. To me, that doesn't seem very appealling, especially compared to the alternative of trying to be constructive and creative in helping someone (Firaxis, Velgames...?) produce a game that is worthy of sustained, insightful discussion. Not sure if that would fall in CivIII General, though.

3. Firaxis PR is curiously sparse, offering prodigious fodder for anti-Firaxis flame threads. Incivility ensues.

solution: Twofold. First, I feel that Firaxis could do well provide a little more feedback. You know, everybody loves feedback. It may even be an instinct, or something. I gladly welcome every post by a Firaxian, even Dan's quip a page back in this thread. It just seems too little, too seldom. Second, though, no amount of PR (or lack thereof) is excuse for incivility, so it's everyone's responsibilty to cope as best as possible. (That's common sense; I probably didn't need to write that.)

4. Polarized players have greater difference in opinion than with other games, from the very disappointed to the very pleased. This naturally leads to more disagreement and a higher potential for flaming. (For the record, I am both pleased with and dissappointed in CivIII, if that's possible.)

solution: This all comes down to everyone being on his/her best behavior. This means respecting others' ideas, arguing rationally and not resorting to put-downs, agreeing to disagree, and even ignoring people if a "...conversation can serve no further purpose." (strained 2001:ASO reference there, sorry) This thread is a great example of civility, so there really isn't much else to do but to go out and lead by example.
[/listofstuffandsuggestions]


Anything else? I think the main point is to lead by example, and to not stoop to a level you wouldn't want to see in others.

Hoping for a more civilized (and generally lively) forum,
-Dienstag

[Captain]

Re: Re: One year ago...

Originally posted by Tuberski


Uncle Ben the rice guy?

I think you know who I mean,
but for clarification it's Ben Parker, husband to May Parker, uncle of Peter Parker (aka Spiderman).

When Peter Parker first got his powers, he used them to earn cash by fighting in the wrestling ring (simple mask over face) and then becoming a showman (thus, the flashy red and blue costume). One day as he was walking out of the entertainment studio, a thief ran past him. A cop called out for Spiderman to stop him and while Spiderman could easily have done so (with no risk to himself), he didn't. He figured it wasn't his problem. That cop should earn his pay and get the criminal himself.

Later that night, he returns home to find his aunt in hysterics. Their home has been robbed and uncle Ben was shot by the thief. Peter Parker vows to hunt down the thief as Spiderman and make him pay. He tracks him down and when he corners him in an empty warehouse, he recognizes the thief as the one he let slip by him. Parker realizes that while he did not pull the trigger, he was partly to blame for the events. He could have prevented it with just a little effort. Parker then dedicates his life to helping others as Spiderman, never more making a mistake by failing to act.

I think you can easily figure out how this relates to the thread topic. Doing the right thing (being civil) takes a little effort, but we may soon regret not making the effort. We set the tone for others by the way we conduct ourselves.

But don't forget, the story doesn't end there. Spiderman's tale was just beginning (and it went pretty well until the weird clone crap caused the series to disintegrate).

[Captain]

Re: Re: can't be sure, but...

Originally posted by Peter Triggs


Captain,

ROTF. Maybe I just have a strange sense of humour, but the logical nuances in that struck me as excellently hilarious.

uhhh, thanks?

I wasn't really meaning to make a joke, it just sortof came out that way. Glad to have entertained though. Apparently that's all the good it was for since DarkCav shot down my thesis.

Perhaps some would say I gave to much credit to his comments, but I value giving the benefit of the doubt.

[Captain]

Originally posted by Dienstag
I've seen a few possible explanations mentioned in this thread about why the level of civility seems to have gone down. (I agree. It used to be better than this.) Here's my quickly compiled list of causes, and some suggestions for possible solutions. This isn't going to be perfect so bring on the comments.

Hmmmm, I was just thinking... are the forums really getting any worse than they were before?

It seems most are agreeing, but I just want to point out that this seems to fit a sociological phenomenon (I don't know the technical name but I call it Golden-age-ism) of always looking upon the past as the kinder, gentler, and better time. Typically the domain of conservatism (example: oh, those good old victorian days when everyone was so polite! we conveniently forget that blacks were slaves and women weren't persons) but it applies equally to the world. (Confucianism is a good example of this, as well as some Caste system corollaries).

(OT Rant: Example number two is the return to educational basics programs where politicians who have no sense of true pedagogy start forcing programs designed to bring us back to the glory days of education - when failure to memorize times tables brought you the strap and when teachers' apparently never had to deal with violence or teenage pregnancy in schools. The reality is that the problems have always been there and new concept-based learning is turning out smarter people, only our tests can't show it because the tests don't measure understanding, they test the ability to regurgitate. )

Was it really better in those days? Or are we undergoing some form of nostalgia?

Either way, the question and Vel's request are still valid. We seem to pretty interested in it, look at all the posts!

Anything else? I think the main point is to lead by example, and to not stoop to a level you wouldn't want to see in others.

-Dienstag

Great point!
Not to toot my own horn, but in a year, I don't think I've gotten into a flame war yet, or have been insulted directly. I don't think I've insulted anyone else or slammed any ideas. (apologies to anyone who has felt insulted). I usually try to give good reasons when expressing my opinion on sensitive issues (esp. politics, religion, history) as opposed to whether the mountain grfx are "too red". Then again, I don't often get a lot of responses to my posts so perhaps I am not being controversial enough I can see how letting one's mouth run away with them can lead to increased entertainment and livelier (though less intelligent) debate. After all, it works for TV and radio shows.

[Immortal Wombat]

Looks like my post almost dropped this into the realms of incivility. Lucky that Vel and others are still nice.

Did someone (TDC?) dare me to ask Ming to close this forum? I think Markos would be a better person to ask. I'll just find his email address.....

[Ming]

Originally posted by Immortal Wombat
Did someone (TDC?) dare me to ask Ming to close this forum? I think Markos would be a better person to ask. I'll just find his email address.....

I think MarkG is more likely to shut down some posters than he is to shut this forum down. But feel free to email him, I'm sure he could use a good laugh

[Tarquelne]

Re: Hey!



Origionally I posted a "serious" response to TDC's last post in response to mine, on stupid questions. Then I read the rest of the thread, when TDC raised his (possibly) true colors.

I'll wait for his answer to the "or are you an ass" question. Um... sorry, that's not true. I'm going to _assume_ he's one untill I see evidence to the contrary. (I mean, maybe his account was hacked, maybe he's being held hostage and forced to write those things, maybe - and this is the scary possibility - maybe he really thinks he's funny.)

[Immortal Wombat]

Originally posted by Ming


I think MarkG is more likely to shut down some posters than he is to shut this forum down. But feel free to email him, I'm sure he could use a good laugh

I really sympathise with Laz at times like this. Re-read my post with a at the end.

[Ming]

Originally posted by Immortal Wombat
I really sympathise with Laz at times like this. Re-read my post with a at the end.

I did read it with a at the end... didn't you see mine

[Immortal Wombat]

Originally posted by Ming
I did read it with a at the end... didn't you see mine

Should stop with this ignore list...

[Velociryx]

'tis good to see all the replies here, and that people are taking such an active interest in the topic OF civility in our posts.

And Wombat....lol...casting out the demons, eh? I kinna like the sounds of that! Ideas for where to start?

I'm glad to have gotten a number of kudos for starting the thread, but it's you guys....all of us collectively that will make the difference....that's really cool, I think....

-=Vel=-

[Steve Clark]

Since some of us long-timers having been popping up here, I must as well chime in here, if just for my friend Vel if nothing else.

I was around when the E3 list was being created, then through the yin wars that cost him his "job", then through the millions of complaints that Firaxis was not providing every single bit of information and through all of the noise prior to release. As predicted, once Civ3 was released, then the nature and purpose of the forum would change, not only due to the rush of newcomers, but to something concrete we can attack or praise. But this cycle is no different than many other fora of popular games, and Apolyton shouldn't be expected to be any different (it's not).

Part of my uncivility in the past comes from countering realistic expectations with those who insisted on espousing unrealistic expectations. And since the release, it was very clear that Civ3 needed more work, but apparently some civer's egos were bruised (for whatever reasons) that caused them to lash out and thus started the downward polarization spiral. My point had been, as with Ming's, that there is nothing wrong with voicing complaints, suggestions and such, but do so in a civil (there's that word again) manner. Unfortunately, some vocal members here felt no need to do that and thus continued the downward polarization spiral. I have not been contributing much of anything to Civ3 because I still feel that they took a great game (Civ2) and ruined it with our lists of changes, as well as with bringing disparate elements from the other civ games (and from the awful EU games).

Personally, I have been waiting patiently for the release of the scenarios and a full scenario editor to contribute to this community again. I also expect that the Civ3 fora will evolve into like the Civ2 fora where the Strategy and MP fora held serious, civil discussions and the General was just a dumping ground (most all of the Civ2 scenarios stuff was in the Scenario League forum).

[hexagonian]

Originally posted by Steve Clark
...but apparently some civer's egos were bruised (for whatever reasons) that caused them to lash out and thus started the downward polarization spiral.

It's somewhat ironic that people place so much of their identity within a game, to the point that any criticism of a game becomes a criticism of the person who likes the game. The line really becomes blurred.

So if somebody makes some critical remark about an in-game mechanic or about the way a company handles a patch, then the person who really likes the game ends up taking that comment personally. Then all it takes is a ill-placed comment to set that person off - usually a subtle, or not-so-subtle comment that is directed at the person personally. For some, it doesn't even need the personal attack to set them off.

I have to be honest, it's like driving past a car wreck when the flames start - you don't want to look, but secretly you end up doing so.

It's funny that we place so much effort into defending/criticizing a computer game.

Personally, I have really appreciated the comments from players who may have not liked the game, because they usually end up raising issues about the game that will never come from the company or from players who really like the game. I think it is very valuable to have that info presented, so I, as a consumer can make an informed decision. I ended up getting the game as a Christmas present, but have yet to play it because according to that info, the game has flaws that would detract from my enjoyment - I have expectations of what I wanted the game to meet and those have not been met.

One valuable lesson is not to rush out and buy anything the day/week it is released.

The question then becomes... 'why even post here then?' That is a valid point, and for some people here, they have every right to take anything I say as worthless.

I do hold out hope that the game will be eventually adequately patched, but I guess the main reason why I am here is that I do see value in the criticism, because it is through that criticism that the game can be improved, ethier via patch or a powerful editor. Firaxis would be well-served to put a high priority on the Editor.

If people who staunchly defend the game realize that most of their defense of the game is based on preference issues, and if those who also are critical of the game realize that players may like the game as is, then that might clear up some of the anger. Lighten up, everyone...

Originally posted by Steve Clark
(...and from the awful EU games)

That would constitute a preference, but I won't hold that against you...

[Velociryx]

Hiya Steve! And it's good to see your name here too! Was wondering where you'd been hiding, but your post, in addtion to brilliantly encapsulating the history and trend of the spiral, answered that question as well.

It's a rare gift to be able to convey so much good information in a few insightful paragraphs, and one of the many reasons your presence on the boards is missed.

I'm glad you decided to post here!

Hex, your points too, are well taken. In fact, I'm probably guilty of taking some of the criticisms of the game to heart. In the early days of Civ3's release, I was an avid fan and staunch supporter. I couldn't believe people were insulting "my" Civ game! How dare they!?

Trouble is...many, if not most of those criticisms were spot on....Civ3 IS a game with some problems, some of them minor, and some of them fairly major.

Oddly, after enough time immersed in the guts of the game, I "switched sides." Could no longer continue avid support of a game with what I perceived and considered too many design flaws, stemming from bedrock level design decisions. All of a sudden then, I found myself criticizing the game, and perhaps unintentionally stinging others as I had once been stung myself.

That was....a somewhat strange turn of events to my brain.

And, as time went by...watching more and more flame fests erupt, it dawned on me that, while I DO have my issues with the design of the game, the fact is, it's still pretty solid, and with work, can be massaged toward greatness in my mind.

The best way I can think to do that is through civil discussion and patience.

Full circle for me then? I dunno. I'm not what you could describe as optimistic about it, but am still more than willing to participate in the ongoing discussions....

-=Vel=-

[Capt Dizle]

In your mind maybe where greatness must be defined as putrid, rotting but not quite yet rank enough to make you puke on sight.

jt