1.FIRAXIS-patch: 17f tech acceleration is too fast to enjoy

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by lockstep


IMO, rapid tech devaluation and the AI's extreme willingness to tech whore is the problem, and doubling the minimum research time won't solve it. The AI's may be only allowed to research 1 tech in 8 turns, but they will still sell 8 techs in 1 turn when given the opportunity.

Yes, but...

The modifications were for a good reason. Tech whoring by the human was very close to a guaranteed win. ie, It could be said that it was an exploit. Now that problem is solved. The AI will take advantage of selling tech just as readily, or more so, than the human.

The new problem is to restore the balance so that the different eras have more meaning. Isn't it? One way to do that is to lengthen the amount of time it takes to develop tech. Maybe it's the best way, maybe not. However, the return of the exploit would not be progress.

Salve

[lockstep]

Originally posted by notyoueither
The new problem is to restore the balance so that the different eras have more meaning. Isn't it? One way to do that is to lengthen the amount of time it takes to develop tech. Maybe it's the best way, maybe not. However, the return of the exploit would not be progress.

I agree that the 'human-only' tech whoring of v.1.07f should not return. Nor should the 'solution' of v.1.16f (AI tech trading during the human player's turn). However, in v1.17f where the AI is finally able to cope with the concept of tech trading (BTW, compliments to Soren for that), any tech that is discovered by an AI civ will be in the hands of most or all other AI civs a few turns later. This is due to the current formula of tech devaluation with its absurd lower floor of 1/16 of the original tech cost. This hard-coded formula needs to be changed - luckily, Firaxis seems to be willing to do so.

[AJ Corp. The FAIR]

quote:

A civ can't advance to another era if it hasn't conquered at least 1/2 cities from a rival civ



WTF?

with all due respect, that's the worst idea i've seen suggested for civ3, ever



--> It was just an example/suggestion. One could choose just a couple of triggers out of a list of more triggers ...

AJ

[Munroe]

Double click on civ3mod.exe
Hit Ctrl-R
Goto World Size Tab
Increase the tech rates by 3-4x for whatever size you play on..
Problem Solved


This doesn't solve the AIs giving out techs but it makes the ages last alot longer and every civ is pretty much equal with everyone else in techs.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Munroe
Double click on civ3mod.exe
Hit Ctrl-R
Goto World Size Tab
Increase the tech rates by 3-4x for whatever size you play on..
Problem Solved


This doesn't solve the AIs giving out techs but it makes the ages last alot longer and every civ is pretty much equal with everyone else in techs.

Actually it does. On large map I kicked the Tech Rate from 180 to 200. Increased minimum from 4 to 8 and maximum from 40 to 60. 12 civs. Emperor. Large continents.

750BC and we're still in the Ancient Age. Also, the AI tends to keep unique techs for a while before selling them to anyone. Then, pfff, it's everywhere. It seems the game is more balanced. More later.

Salve

[Pius Popprasch]

I increased the prices for the Middle Ages techs to play that era longer and it works relatively well. The remaining problem are the tiny underdeveloped civs who gain access too easily.

[exeter0]

Actually it does. On large map I kicked the Tech Rate from 180 to 200. Increased minimum from 4 to 8 and maximum from 40 to 60. 12 civs. Emperor. Large continents.

I agree. I've made similar changes and it seems to work a lot better with similar results.

[theEntity]

I have an idea that I think would both be easy to implement and that would work...

Just add a rule that a civ must known a tech for a set number of turns before it can sell the tech to any other civ. the number of turns could possibly depend on the age, with 30 turns in the ancient age and 10 in the modern age.

This is both quite realistic - Knowledge don't travel with the speed of light, and should fix the tech acceleration problem. It will also work against both human and AI players.

[aahz_capone]

quote:
"In summary; due to the tech trade changes, much gameplay strategies have been lost, and the game has become far to linear. In addition, the (once) great wonder The Theory of Evolution is useless. However the human player must build it or the AI civs will all benifit from it."

This is exactly what happened to me. I've reloaded game from the autosave many occasions to see how the civs which are backwards in tech and have no cash or luxuries or resources get withing 2 turns of their contacting a "well informed civ" all the techs and all the contacts with the only requirement that the backward civ have at least 5 cities. (For some reason if it hqas like 3 cities it gets so totally and utterly ignored in the game that you wonder why they are allowed to live).

My only conclusions are that the AI either "gives" techs away in the name of peace and love, which I think is NOT what is happeneing, FIRAXIS would never program like that. The other is that the techs are literally being traded for 1 gold and your territory map (and for some reason I have only extremely rarely been able to get civs wordl map even by offering my lifes blood in 1.17f). Result: tech whores. (I love that fraze...)

I think that a pattent system is much needed. A civ may NOT trade a new tech with another civ for X turns after you've traded it with them, but it makes the whole deal more expensive, deal broken -> war, yadd yadda yadda, u get the idea

[Adm.Naismith]

It seems to me that the problem is related to:
- too fast devaluation of tech cost
- lot of trouble about trading tech (added to many silly AI decision trading resources, luxuries, cities, etc.)

I use to visit this site seldom, in last couple of months, so I'm probably missing something relevant, but I've get the strong impression that "patches" solution about tactics and strategies (i.e. not strictly about bug crushing) reflect developers wandering without a good plan.

I've already read about stopping every (human) winning strategies cutting game choice. I'm really unable to win the game without a large abuse of military (not a starship launched yet! My worst result after years of Civ/CivII/SMAC games! ).

I tried different tactics, but nothing seems to work outside of a very narrow path, that include a relevant part of necessary lucky for good measure!

Someone should go back to the design table, take a long breathe and rebalance the whole beast before the game become a pale shadow of the former "legend". IMHO, of course.

[kailhun]

I voted don't know, because a) I don't know and b) there was no banana option.
I've just started my first 1.17 game and the tech has gone extremely fast. I'm hoping that this is due to a different way of playing (build cities closer together so that more of the land actualy gets used, so more beakers). I've also reduced the min number of turns to 1. I did see some very low turns for tech numbers though.
I went straight for Republic. The other civs went their own way, but want Republic so much they will trade three or four techs for Republic. So now I've gotten almost all of the first tech screen. In a very short time.
It was impossible to build wonders as the way to Republic passes most of them and the AI has them build before you even have the tech. In this game tech seems to have developed very fast.

I would like to know what was changed in 1.17 to speed up tech development and why.

Robert

[AJ Corp. The FAIR]

Remind us, the Formula One Tech Accelerations ain't an issue whilst playing on lower levels than emperor/deity.

There however exists one major slowdown process on emp./deit.:
a long-period World War. Civs then focus on military and economic maximilization, instead of researching. If you play a game on larger maps and there are wars very early on that keep proceeding throughout times, then and only then, the FOTA develops in a 'normal' way ... Meaning: warmongers now get rewarded even more and better than before ...

What do you guys (or/and girls?) think about some extra must do's / must have's (only a few of them, chosen out of a list of 'triggers') before being allowed to advance through other eras?
This would better reflect historical realism and has already been implemented in a way in AOE2, ...

Just a couple of triggers you (= your civ empire) 'd have to focus on if you want to move on the scale of civ-advances ...

I'd definitely vote YES, IMMEDIATELY !!!!

Kind regards,
AJ

[White Elk]

Quote by AJ Corp. The FAIR
Remind us, the Formula One Tech Accelerations ain't an issue whilst playing on lower levels than emperor/diety.
I must be misunderstanding this statement, or is it a sarcasism that's gone over my head? I've played two Monarch and one Emperor level game since installing the patch; and have found the accelerated tech race to be just as much of an issue with the Monarch games as the Emperor.

I like the idea of "triggers" but have none of my own (that have any semblence of game balance) to share.

I do however have a couple of other ideas.
What if a Civs reputation played a part in trade deals? A Civ that has broken agreements, been excessivly aggresive etc. would be "blacklisted" from future trades, or would be required to pay an exhorbinant amount for the tech. Currently AI Civs will sue for peace, and within a few turns trade techs like Gunpowder or Chivelry with each other. That seems a little out of whack to me.

Maybee a limit to how many tech trades per Civ per turn? I would prefer pre-1.17f to this, but would rather play this way than the way it is now.

And what about assigning each Civ a compatibility value? This would require that each Civ has it's own unique "personality". That way relations and the likelyhood of trade will be better between some Civs than others. For instance the Religous/Commercial Indians would be less likely to trade with the Militaristic/Scientific Germans. Then for even more interesting and complex gameplay, add in reputation factors. So compatible Civs who have treated each other poorly will also be unlikely to trade with each other. And uncompatible Civs who share a common foe and have never warred will become more likely to trade.

[Arrian]

Just so you all know, Soren has said that Firaxis is looking into the rate of tech advancement and also the floor on tech devaluation (i.e. the lowest value a tech can fall to, currently 1/number of existing civs). Basically, they agree things aren't working quite right. See:

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=43559

and

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=42905

FYI.

-Arrian

[White Elk]

Thanks for pointing out those threads Arrian.