Have you or will you ever play CtP2

[Leonidas]

Originally posted by Minuteman


That depends on how you look at it. Since the majority of the repies are from you, Leonidas, and Exeter, one could say this thread has become the new home for three ctp2 fans.

Any Irony in that?

Minuteman: Hi

The extreme irony is this:

I am a long-time civ player, and I have played Civ3. I just wish that I had seen a thread like this months ago, because CTP2 modded with Cradle is truly exceptional IMHO.

This thread, therefore, is to let other civers know that challenges can be found in other games such as CTP2 (which is still basically a civ strategy game).

CTP2 does not replace Civ3, but is just another game that civers can have fun with Both games can be a lot of fun. Some players like one, the other, or both. It all depends on what you look for in a game, and your play style.

Computer games, like books and food, are subjective, and people like them or dislike them, according to their individual tastes and preferences. . .

Because CTP2 is so customizable, the more players playing the game means even more changes will be implemented in the near future. . .

But more importantly, WE have NOTHING to gain from this, while other CIVERS have EVERYTHING to gain:

CTP2 can be purchased for under $20 (I bought mine for $14.95), and all of the mods are FREE.

[Minuteman]

Leo,

Thanks for reading my post. Don't misunderstand me, I wasn't trying to attack Ctp2, or any fans of Ctp2, for that matter, with my comments.

I was only jokingly suggesting to Wombat that he take into account his, yours, and Exeter's posts before assessing the popularity of this thread.

But it's cool.

[Minuteman]

BTW, Leon, Wombat, anyone...

This is a little off topic here, but I was wondering if you think that there's any possiblity that, perhaps with the introduction of a more powerful editor, that Civ III could ever be as customizable as Ctp2 was/is?

I'll admit that I wasn't the biggest Ctp2 fan in the world (The default AI killed any chance of that happening), but I would like to see more of an effort made by Firaxis to accomodate the mod community in any, and all future upgrades.

After all, when you think about it, even as much as I like Civ III as it is now, it will grow tiresome after awhile. That's when having the option to install some user-created mods would really come in handy. Don't you think?

[Leonidas]

Minuteman: Thanks for your comments

Yes, it is funny

Though this thread has been viewed hundreds of times, so someone must be interested in what's being said

Even so, we' re all having fun, which is the way it should be. . .

[Leonidas]

Originally posted by Minuteman
BTW, Leon, Wombat, anyone...

This is a little off topic here, but I was wondering if you think that there's any possiblity that, perhaps with the introduction of a more powerful editor, that Civ III could ever be as customizable as Ctp2 was/is?

I'll admit that I wasn't the biggest Ctp2 fan in the world (The default AI killed any chance of that happening), but I would like to see more of an effort made by Firaxis to accomodate the mod community in any, and all future upgrades.

After all, when you think about it, even as much as I like Civ III as it is now, it will grow tiresome after awhile. That's when having the option to install some user-created mods would really come in handy. Don't you think?

Minuteman: I think you're right on topic. Everyone wants Civ 3 to be as customizable as possible. Civ 3 is an excellent game. With the proper editors, files, etc, it can be develped into a great game with a very long life.

Just looking at the work that has been on Civ 2, CTP2 and many other games by modders, means that Firaxis could extend the life of Civ 3 indefinitely if it will accomodate the wishes of the modding community.

Hopefully, threads like this one, input from the community, as well as many of the ideas that have been implemented in the mods for CTP2, will be seriously looked at by Firaxis and the better ideas will be incorporated into future patches/ editions of Civ 3.

The way I look at it is, input and ideas can only benefit Firaxis (more sales and good word of mouth) and the gamer (better modding, scenarios, etc).

Hopefully, in time, Civ 3 will be THE game that everyone wants it to be. . .

[exeter0]

Originally posted by Leonidas


Hopefully, threads like this one, input from the community, as well as many of the ideas that have been implemented in the mods for CTP2, will be seriously looked at by Firaxis and the better ideas will be incorporated into future patches/ editions of Civ 3.

Hopefully, in time, Civ 3 will be THE game that everyone wants it to be. . .

Couldn;t agree more Leonidas.

I am not in this Forum 'cause I am a CTP2 fan and I want to terrorise it with CTP spam.

I joined this forum about 4 months before CIV3 came out in excited anticipation of the game coming out. I expected that when it came out... I would be putting CTP2 in the CD museum box.

With the game coiming out and having played it... I think the game has fallen short of most peoples expectations on this forum. (look at the long threads on 'this and that sux in CIV3'.

Being constructive, I think there is a lot of ideas in CTP2 that can be referenced on order to improve CIV3.

And I hope that when more people have a look at CTP2 + MODS, there will some more constructive and informed contrasts made between the 2 games that will benefit us all ultimately.

[Minuteman]

Originally posted by Leonidas



Minuteman: I think you're right on topic. Everyone wants Civ 3 to be as customizable as possible. Civ 3 is an excellent game. With the proper editors, files, etc, it can be develped into a great game with a very long life.

Just looking at the work that has been on Civ 2, CTP2 and many other games by modders, means that Firaxis could extend the life of Civ 3 indefinitely if it will accomodate the wishes of the modding community.

Hopefully, threads like this one, input from the community, as well as many of the ideas that have been implemented in the mods for CTP2, will be seriously looked at by Firaxis and the better ideas will be incorporated into future patches/ editions of Civ 3.

The way I look at it is, input and ideas can only benefit Firaxis (more sales and good word of mouth) and the gamer (better modding, scenarios, etc).

Hopefully, in time, Civ 3 will be THE game that everyone wants it to be. . .

I couldn't agree with you more, but I have a strong suspicion that Firaxis intends to do with Civ III what Maxis did with The Sims: release one expansion pack after another without changing, or allowing anyone to change, the basic hard-coded shell of the game.

In other words, I'm not sure that they want any of the talented Civ modders to steal their thunder before they've had a chance to profit from this series as much as possible.

That's the obvious move for Firaxis here, and it's certainly good business. I'm just not sure, however, if it is the best thing for the Civ community.

After all, I'd like to think that we're just a little bit smarter than our counterparts in The Sims community (no offense), but I could be wrong....

[hexagonian]

Originally posted by Leonidas
I just wish that I had seen a thread like this months ago, because CTP2 modded with Cradle is truly exceptional IMHO.

I could have stood here and tell everyone about how good CTP2 is now (as a Modder), but frankly, who in the civ3 community would of listened...

(Actually, I laid down a 'Cradle Challenge' in the civ3 forums about 1-1/2 months before civ3 was released. Basically, I said to give the game a try before civ3 was in player's hands. I felt that much of the criticism levelled at CTP2 was fixed through the modding process.)

...However, (understandebly) most players were so hyped for civ3's release that the challenge went unnoticed.

There were a lot of good early reports for civ3 too - but there were also reports that did not reflect too well on the game for me - most notably combat, PW, late game tedium, computer system performace and the lack of a good editor. These were all features that CTP2 had covered rather well.

So the good reports about CTP2 Modded had to come from players who have tried both. IMO, it still comes down to preferences for players.

As for the civ3 Editor, I think Firaxis HAS to eventually release a powerful Editor - and I believe they will do it. Just because they are silent about it does not mean that nothing is happening - more likely they do not want to shoot themselves in the foot by saying something and then having to back off on it. (past experience concerning multiplayer is why they are being careful).

For me, however, I prefer more of the way CTP2 is set up (including PW, combat, stacking) so it is hard for me to work up any excitement about civ3, even with a good Editor.

And I'm playing EU2 now!!!

[Captain]

Originally posted by exeter0

I am not in this Forum 'cause I am a CTP2 fan and I want to terrorise it with CTP spam.

Even though the thread's mostly about CtP2, I think it's good that it's here. I've been Apolyton for a while but I never went to the CtP forums. This has been really informative - I'm starting to think that if I like Civ 123, then CtP2 might be for me too. It's good to raise awareness because sometimes we get tunnel vision being attuned to only one game.

[loinburger]

I'm waiting on MOO3. If I ever see Ctp2 in the bargain bin I might take a looksee...

[Leonidas]

For those of you who are interested - and what civer wouldn't be

Here is a more detailed look at what's included in the Cradle Mod. This is taken from the readme that accompanies the Mod itself.

Please bear in mind that this is only a partial list of what's included, and even then it presents only the highlights.

Personally, I love to read through stuff like this I also like to look at the artwork of modders who do new units, cities, etc. . .

So here ya go:

1. The Ancient Age has been stretched out to about the Mid-late Modern Age, turnwise. The focus of this Mod has always been on the Ancient/Medieval Age. Generally, I do not play the game too much after Mid-Modern anyhow (at least that was the case with CTP1). The timeline starts at 7000BC and runs through 2300AD though, and will allow for about 1400 turns. I have not made too much effort to get the years to line up with the flow of the game in terms of the tech tree. However, the tech tree does follow the course of history.

2. There are about 57 new Ancient/Medieval Techs

The bulk of which falls in the Ancient Age. I refer you to the pdf files for information, and for a poster-sized, printable Tech Tree. Acrobat Reader is needed to open the pdfs, and can be downloaded for free at www.adobe.com.

3. There are 6 new Governments (making 18 in total)

Dynasty, City State, Oligarchy, Dictatorship, Tribunal Empire, Caliphate

I refer you to the pdf files for information and a comparison analysis chart.

4. There are 17 new Wonders (in addition to those already in the game):

Stonehenge - (+10%) Food

Code of Hammurabi - (-25%) Crime

Temple of Solomon - (+1) Happiness for entire civ

Valley of the Kings - Free Apothecary for every city

Hanging Gardens - Free Aqueduct for every city

Lighthouse of Alexandria - (+1) Movement for boats - Increases gold from foreign trade

Olympics - (+1) HP each unit

Temple of Zeus - (+2) Happiness for entire civ

Spartan Philosophy - (-20%) Readiness cost for units

Hadrian’s Wall - (-10%) Readiness cost for units - Protection from barbarians

Coliseum - Free Arena for every city

Resurrection - (+1) Happiness for entire civ

Mecca - (+10%) Science for entire civ - 2 Scientists for host city

Silk Road - (+10%) Production

Shakespeare Theatre - (+1) Happiness for entire civ

Newton’s Theories - (+10%) Science

Manhattan Project - 5 Scientists in host city

In addition, many of the old Wonders will be obsolete when certain techs are researched. Refer to the Great Library for details.

5. There are approximately 30 new Units and the differences in strength as you advance is gradual. This is an attempt to make overall combat more difficult. You will need to gain a sizable tech lead to get a sizable advantage in combat strength factors (at least this is the hope). Be aware that there are changes across the board on all units in terms of every element related to that unit. I refer you to the pdf files and the Great Library for information on every unit.

6. There is also a set of Wonder Units that are tied into the creation of certain Wonders. I tried to align them to a theme within the Wonder - hence the selection of certain leaders. They will grant veteran status to any units underneath them. They also operate as ranged units, so they will not be sitting on the front lines taking the early hits - and are generally stronger than their counterparts. There is a happiness penalty if the unit is disbanded or lost.

Hammurabi - Code of Hammurabi

Ramses - Valley of the Kings

Nebuchadnezzer - Hanging Gardens

Alexander the Great - Spartan Philosophy

Caesar - Appian Way

Muhammed - Mecca

Charlemagne - Hagia Sophia

Hernan Cortes - East India Company

Ulysses Grant - Emancipation Proclamation

Dwight Eisenhower - Manhattan Project

Norman Schwarzkopf - Internet

7. There are 17 new City Improvements:

Here is the list of all city improvements through the Renaissance and what they are useful for.

Happiness
Shrine - Wall - Theatre - City Wall - Arena - Mosque - Basilica

Science
Ziggurat - Academy - Monastery - Publishing House - University

Gold
Bazaar - Marketplace - Agora - Bank - City Clock - Craft Guild

Food
Granary - Aqueduct - Silo

Efficiency/Growth/Population Pollution Reduction
Apothecary - Physician - Bath House

Production
Forge - Work Camp - Conscripted Labor - Mill - Craft Guild

Crime
Courthouse - Forum - Castle

Defensive/Offensive
Wall - City Wall - Ballista Tower - Castle


Afterwards, improvements are the standard CTP2 ones. Please note that the Population/Efficiency growth improvements are different than that of the default game. Since there is a limit of 64 Buildings, I had to delete the following buildings.

Matter Decompiler - Micro Defense - Nanite Factory - Cornucopia Vat - Aqua Filter

They will show up in your build queues though - but the AI will not build them.

8. I have also implemented the following tweaks, which will make the game more challenging. One of my main purposes in creating this Mod was to address the shortcomings of the AI. I worked from the principle that if the AI was not capable of exploiting a feature in the game, then I would (attempt to) severely limit what the player could do in that same situation. This would make the game more difficult, because the tried-and-true strategies of the past may not work as well.

a. Units with Bombard Capabilities have the Counterbombard ability


There are several SLIC files which will enhance the game:

The Militia trigger will build a Militia unit in every newly-built city. This trigger has gone through much development - but it serves the purpose of protecting small cities from Barbarian attacks.

The AirUnit trigger will help the AI maintain its air force, as it had a tendency to crash its planes.

The CaptureCity trigger will destroy ½ of the buildings in any city that falls to invaders, and will destroy ¾ of the buildings if the city is nuked.

The Capital trigger will help the AI rebuild its Capital if it is captured.

The Diplomod trigger enhances the diplomatic aspect of the game. (see Dale’s readme)

The WonderBuildings trigger will remove any Wonder-created buildings from the build lists.

The WonderUnits trigger will create a set of Wonder-related units. (see above) The POW trigger will create a low grade infantry unit when a Wonder unit is victorious in battle.

The UnitUpdater trigger allow players to upgrade units to a higher level - the AI updates for free.


The creator of Cradle Mod v2.1:

Dave
aka hexagonian
email: hexagonia@yahoo.com Post suggestions on Apolyton in the CTP2 Mod section.

[Immortal Wombat]

Originally posted by Minuteman
That depends on how you look at it. Since the majority of the repies are from you, Leonidas, and Exeter, one could say this thread has become the new home for three ctp2 fans.

Any Irony in that?

Perhaps. Though my online 'home' is spread across many fora on many sites

This is a little off topic here, but I was wondering if you think that there's any possiblity that, perhaps with the introduction of a more powerful editor, that Civ III could ever be as customizable as Ctp2 was/is?

I think with a powerful editor, the ingenuity that can be displayed will find workarounds for most issues such that Civ3 can be as moddable as Civ2, and a lot better. However, I think the way that the Editor is layed out will make it hard for Civ3 to be as customizable as CtP/2. CtP's data is all stored in text files, all the data is available at once, and adding/subtracting stuff is really easy. I've never used the Civ3 editor, so I don't know how easy it is to use, but I didn't like EasyMod for CtP (essentially an integrated editor program like in Civ3), I much prefer the hands-on text filing.
So working on those grounds, Civ3 could be as customizable as CtP/2, whetehr its a little harder or a little easier depends on what you're used to.
However, as far as modding is concerned, without a moddable AI (whether its strictly seen as necessary or not for playing the game), and without a means of altering concepts - beyond rules, into game feature design (ala SLIC, or StarCraft's StarEdit events language etc.), I don't think the capacity for scenario making will be as diverse. Though I concede the Civ2 scenario designers have done wonders with the available resources.

After all, when you think about it, even as much as I like Civ III as it is now, it will grow tiresome after awhile. That's when having the option to install some user-created mods would really come in handy. Don't you think?

Yes indeed, that is why Civ2 has persevered so long, though rather than mods, scenarios are much more common; and altering game-technique, eg OCC, Succession gaming, Diplomacy game etc.

Leonidas, stop your spamming

[mbealer]

One thing I disliked about CTP2 was the future techs, the underwater junk and the space cities... do any of the mods eliminate that? I'd like to play without those features and units if possible.

Thanks,
Michael

[Immortal Wombat]

Originally posted by mbealer
One thing I disliked about CTP2 was the future techs, the underwater junk and the space cities... do any of the mods eliminate that? I'd like to play without those features and units if possible.

The space is no longer in CtP2, if you don't want future techs, just start a thread in the creation forum asking someone to write some SLIC disabling all research past whatever advances you want the cut-off point.

[Leonidas]

Originally posted by Immortal Wombat


Leonidas, stop your spamming

Thanks for the kind words IW

But in all fairness, I cannot take credit for spam. As much as I would like to, that wonderful honour must go to Monty Python.

Remember that great script?

Here it is:

The SPAM Sketch
from The Final Rip Off

Mr. Bun: Morning.

Waitress: Morning.

Mr. Bun: Well, what you got?

Waitress: Well, there's egg and bacon; egg, sausage and bacon; egg and spam; egg, bacon and spam; egg, bacon, sausage and spam; spam, bacon, sausage and spam; spam, egg, spam, spam, bacon and spam; spam, sausage, spam, spam, spam, bacon, spam, tomato and spam; spam, spam, spam, egg and spam; (Vikings start singing in background) spam, spam, spam, spam, spam, spam, baked beans, spam, spam, spam and spam.

Vikings: Spam, spam, spam, spam, lovely spam, lovely spam.

Waitress: (cont) or lobster thermador ecrovets with a bournaise sause, served in the purple salm Mr. Bunor with chalots and overshies, garnished with truffle pate, brandy, a fried egg on top and spam.

Mrs. Bun: Have you got anything without spam?

Waitress: Well, there's spam, egg, sausage and spam. That's not got much spam in it.

Mrs. Bun: I don't want any spam!

Mr. Bun: Why can't she have egg, bacon, spam and sausage?

Mrs. Bun: That's got spam in it.

Mr. Bun: It hasn't got as much spam in it as spam, egg, sausage and spam has it?

Mrs. Bun: (over Vikings starting again) Could you do me egg, bacon, spam and sausage without the spam then?

Waitress: Ech!

Mrs. Bun: What do you mean ech! I don't like spam!

Vikings: Lovely spam, wonderful spam....etc

Waitress: Shut up! Shut up! Shut up! Bloody vikings. You can't have egg, bacon, spam and sausage without the spam.

Mrs. Bun: I don't like spam!

Mr. Bun: Shh dear, don't cause a fuss. I'll have your spam. I love it. I'm having spam, spam, spam, spam, spam, spam, spam, baked beans, spam, spam, spam and spam. (starts Vikings off again)

Vikings: Lovely spam, wonderful spam...etc

Waitress: Shut up! Baked beans are off.

Mr. Bun: Well, can I have her spam instead of the baked beans?

Waitress: You mean spam, spam, spam, spam, spam, spam, spam, spam, spam, spam, spam, and spam?

Vikings: Lovely spam, wonderful spam...etc...spam, spam, spam! (in harmony)


I love Monty Python. But I never seem to see it on TV anymore.