Air Naval Combat for Firaxis and Modders and You

[Willem]

Originally posted by Kilroy_Alpha

The only problem I have with the air and navy units is their complete weakness compared to ground units. You'd think a battleship would have attack and defense values at least APPROACHING a modern tank, but it doesn't. The result of THIS is that air and sea units are pretty useless for bombarding land units. Fortunately, this can be fixed with the editor.

Hmmm, I never noticed that, I'll definitely have to fix that. Battle ships are way more powerful than a tank.

[notyoueither]

Sir Ralph.

Fast Cruisers. Now some of the navy buffs may begin to object. I agree, but they will argue that the latest BBs outpaced the Cruisers of the day. Been there, done that. But CAs as support for the DDs and being slightly faster than BB and CV is a good idea, I agree (from the point of view of fun and play balance).

OK, the ASW surface is being scratched. Yes DDs should go fast and have a chance to detect diesel Subs, but not nuclear. AGCr and a newer Frigate might detect nuke boats. How?

More values in the editor. This might cost a lot of beer before we're done.

What values? How? Thinking...

I would say that basic ASW should only be a chance to detect diesel Subs. It should be low. Or Subs would be on the way to being useless.

Aircraft might share the chance to detect value if they perform the recon role.

Advanced ASW would need to be another value. It would give a better (very good) chance to detect diesel boats and a small chance to detect nuke boats.

That's my first stab at it.

Salve

[notyoueither]

Re: Re: Air Naval Combat for Firaxis and Modders and You

Originally posted by Willem
Why not just have an aircraft that can only be based on Carriers, and only those have the ability to sink ships?

Only on Carriers? I don't think that flies, if you can forgive my pun. All navies with Carriers also have land based naval air bases. BTW, how would they get to the Carrier from the factory?

Definitely need a way to restrict units from landing on CVs. Either a no Carrier allowed negative option, or a positive one to allow Carrier landings. Actually, I think the positive option would be best. Then the default for air would be non Carrier. The modder would have to make it Carrier capable.

My reasoning for the seperate bombardment values (Sea-Land) is to make it more flexible. Since we're adding a field to the editor, why not add the one that allows the most variation? Actually, my preference requires 2 options in the editor. One for the value and one for the Sink Ships logical field. But who besides Mike is counting?

Of course, if we can only get 1 thing, the Carrier capable switch and the code in the game that allows only these units to sink ships by bombard would have to do.

Salve

[Willem]

Re: Re: Re: Air Naval Combat for Firaxis and Modders and You

Originally posted by notyoueither


Only on Carriers? I don't think that flies, if you can forgive my pun. All navies with Carriers also have land based naval air bases. BTW, how would they get to the Carrier from the factory?

I was thinking in terms of a compromise for those people that just have to be able to sink ships. It would provide a limitation so they don't just pump out a certain type of aircraft. I see it as a simpler approach to what you're suggesting with the Sea/Air limitations. As for getting them on the Carrier, simple, they're built in a coastal city and you have a carrier waiting nearby.

[notyoueither]

Yes Willem. The more I think about it the more I think your's is the simplest and more likely to be implemented solution.

Not the best, but we may never get the best if it is too complex.

I think i may incorporate it into the first post as *can we have this? or if not this, then at least that?*

I should think they would be land basable (a word?), but a different unit from Fighter and Bomber. That would specialize them enough to avoid the proliferation of the ubiquitous Uber Air Unit. Weaker Air to Air than Fighter, Weaker Bombard than Bomber.

Salve

[sachmo71]

How about figuring out a way to just give carriers an intrinsic airpower value? Such as a VERY high AA ability, and a limited bombardment ability? Not sure if that is possible, but it might keep a new unit from having to be created...just a thought, anyway!

[Willem]

Originally posted by sachmo71
How about figuring out a way to just give carriers an intrinsic airpower value? Such as a VERY high AA ability, and a limited bombardment ability? Not sure if that is possible, but it might keep a new unit from having to be created...just a thought, anyway!

That would be even simpler still. And it's the easy changes that are most likely to be implemented at this point. Though I'm guessing that a lot of players wouldn't be satisfied with just imagining that there is aircraft on the carrier, they'd want to have an actual unit.

[Willem]

Originally posted by notyoueither
Yes Willem. The more I think about it the more I think your's is the simplest and more likely to be implemented solution.

Not the best, but we may never get the best if it is too complex.

I think i may incorporate it into the first post as *can we have this? or if not this, then at least that?*

I should think they would be land basable (a word?), but a different unit from Fighter and Bomber. That would specialize them enough to avoid the proliferation of the ubiquitous Uber Air Unit. Weaker Air to Air than Fighter, Weaker Bombard than Bomber.

Salve

No it's not the best solution, nor is the current model. But it would be better than in previous games where the aircraft ended up being all powerful. The chopper in SMAC being an excellent example. There needs to be some serious limitations for aircraft if we hope to have a balanced game. I can sympathize with those people who want to be able to sink ships, but over all, the current model is way better than the way it was done before.

[notyoueither]

Ahh, I see what sachmo meant by the Carrier bombard rating. I agree with Willem re the lack of satisfaction for those interested in naval combat.

Agreed Willem. Game balance is more important than nit-picking realism, by a nose. Fun has to fit in there too, I think over balance by another nose. For a number of us fun is probably a product of the *real/believable* and *balanced* values.

Salve

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by notyoueither
Grumbold.

Does Blitzing effect bombard? As you can tell I haven't tried that. I haven't modded very much yet personally. Until the final editor is out I prefer to devote my limited free time to playing (and kibitzing here of course). More on this when I can get home and test something.

Hmm, yup seems Blitzing BBs, even with 5 movement, are a severe menace to terrain improvements, even with 1.17.

Blitzing ships would require another setting. Movement expended to bombard.

Maybe if Mike is feeling really charitable.

Salve

[Panag]

well for a start , the stealth bombers should have a range that is more like 20 or so , this is impossible as of yet , the max in the editor is 8

hmmm , there should be a helicopter that could land on a ship , a frigate or so that could see subs

as for range , hmm, lets see in the real world , .........

have a nice day

[Willem]

Originally posted by panag
well for a start , the stealth bombers should have a range that is more like 20 or so , this is impossible as of yet , the max in the editor is 8

hmmm , there should be a helicopter that could land on a ship , a frigate or so that could see subs

as for range , hmm, lets see in the real world , .........

have a nice day

There is some stuff over at CivAddicts that will let you create just that. It's a type of AEGIS unit, with a different helicopter. And I hope by Frigate, you mean a modern day one. It would interesting to see a helicopter try to land on a sailing ship.

[Panag]

Willem a helicopter is from these days , of course the frigate would have to be , tried the stuff , its a no go

so , what could be done for the stealth bombers

thanks , have a nice day

[Willem]

Originally posted by panag
Willem a helicopter is from these days , of course the frigate would have to be , tried the stuff , its a no go

so , what could be done for the stealth bombers

thanks , have a nice day

I just remembered that I had DL'd that file, so here some animations etc. I haven't used them them yet so I don't know what they're like. I can't quite understand why they didn't include an attack chopper.

[Panag]

Okay , thanks but what about the increase in range for example

okay , in editor there are just to many fields like the one for range who have a maximum , could this be overcome somehow ?