Air Naval Combat for Firaxis and Modders and You

[Willem]

Originally posted by notyoueither

I'm trying to remain focused on what the designers are likely to find useful for their plans. Assuming they ain't done planning yet.

I'm sure there's always the possibility of the "Why didn't I think of that?" factor. At least I'm hoping on it.

(I love that grin.)

[notyoueither]

I hope they read the whole thread and not just what I eventually edit at the beginning.

Salve

[Willem]

Originally posted by notyoueither
I hope they read the whole thread and not just what I eventually edit at the beginning.

Salve

All you can do is plant a seed and hope it grows.

[korn469]

Good to hear from korn in this thread. It would be better if he put forth some ideas... [Nudge, nudge]. I'm sure he has some.

ok you asked for it

ok here is the combat oriented changes i've made in civ3

first i upped the hitpoints to the following levels

Conscript 4
Regular 6
Veteran 9
Elite 12

this has two effects, it makes it much less likely for better units to lose, and it makes better trained forces more valuable than in civ3

secondly i seperated the military ability from the trade ability of the harbor and the airport and i created a building that makes veteran naval units (port facility) and a building that makes veteran air units (airforce installation)

i also upped the cost and maintenance of these buildings

Barracks 80/1
Port Facility 120/2
Airforce Installation 160/3 (oil)

this means that to have those good combat units you need to invest into military infrastructure

while i did a few changes early on the stats are close to civ3 stats for the first two ages, but in the industrial and modern era i about changed everything

_____________________________________
Industrial Era Land Units
Grenadier 8.4.1 60/1 {Marines} Nationalism
Rifleman 6.8.1 60/1 {Infantry}
Infantry 10.12.2 80/1 {Mech Infantry} rubber
Partisan 6.5.4 40/1 (hidden nationality, invisable) Replaceable Parts
Marine 15.10.2 100/1 (amphibious unit) rubber
Tank 20.10.3 100/1 (blitz) {Modern Armor} oil, iron
Panzer 20.10.4 100/1 (blitz) {Tank} oil, iron
Paratrooper 12.12.2 [8] 110/1 (airdrop) oil, rubber
Artillary 0.1.2 16[5]2 80 {Radar Artillary} iron

first thing i added a new unit to cover the gap in offensive units between longbowmen and marines, this should help out both the player and especially the AI, then i upped the units stats, as you can see combat should be more fast paced, and marines and paratroopers are actually worthwhile
_____________________________________
Modern Land Units
Mech Infantry 16.24.4 120/1 (blitz) oil, iron, rubber
Modern Armor 32.16.4 120/1 (blitz) oil, iron, rubber
Radar Artillary 0.1.3 20[6]2 120 (blitz, radar) oil, aluminum
Cruise Missile 0.0.1 15[8]4 60 (tactical missile, cruise missile, foot soldier, load, airlift) aluminum
Tactical Nuke 0.0.1 0[0]8 130 aluminum, uranium
ICBM 0.0.1 (ICBM) 250 aluminum, uranium

besides making nuclear weapons truly dangerous, i powered down the defense of the modern armor unit and upped the speed of the mech infantry and i made it so that a player would have to have a strong trade network to build them, but modern armor and mech infantry should be used in tandem...i also made the radar artillary unit a fast moving hard hitting piece of equipment that cannot be captured
_____________________________________
Ancient Naval Units
Outrigger 0.1.2 10|1 (sink in sea, sink in ocean) {Galley} NONE
Galley 2.2.3 30|2 {Caravel}

Middle Age Naval Units
Caravel 0.2.4 40|3 {Galleon}
Frigate 6.4.5 6[4]1 60 {Ironclad} iron, saltpeter
Man-O-War 8.4.5 8[5]1 60 {Frigate} iron, saltpeter
Galleon 0.3.5 50|4 {Transport}
Privateer 5.2.6 50 (hidden nationality, zoc) {Destroyer} iron, saltpeter

Industrial Era Naval Units
Ironclad 10.9.6 8[5]1 80 {Destroyer} iron, coal
Transport 0.8.8 90|8 oil
Destroyer 14.12.11 8[5]1 100 (can see submarines) {Aegis Cruiser} oil, iron
Battleship 30.20.10 14[6]2 200 oil, iron, coal
Carrier 0.18.10 200|5 (radar) oil, rubber
Submarine 16.6.9 100 (can see submarines, zoc) oil

Modern Naval Units
Aegis Cruiser 16.24.11 12[5]1 160|3 (can see submarines, radar, can carry tactical missiles, carry foot units only) aluminum, uranium
Nuclear Submarine 10.12.10 150|3 (can see submarines, can carry tactical missiles) aluminum, uranium

as you can see with naval units i just tossed the firaxis stats and rebalanced them to what i thought was correct and balanced
_____________________________________
Industrial Era Air Units
Fighter 6.5.3 8[4]6 100 (blitz) {F-15} oil, rubber
Bomber 0.3.3 12[8]8 120 (blitz) oil, rubber
Helicopter 0.2.3 0[0]6 100 (can see submarines/invisable units) oil, rubber

Modern Air Units
Jet Fighter 12.10.4 12[6]8 150 (blitz, radar) oil, aluminum
F-15 12.10.4 15[8]8 150 (blitz, radar) {Jet Fighter} oil, aluminum
Stealth Fighter 0.4.4 16[6]8 150 (blitz, radar, stealth) oil, aluminum, uranium
Stealth Bomber 0.2.4 18[10]8 300 (blitz, radar, stealth) oil, aluminum, uranium

while air units might not be able to sink ships, with their ability to strike multiple times in one turn coupled with the higher hitpoints they should be able to terrorize ships that stray too close to the coast, as well as be able to bomb a civ into submission
_____________________________________
Armies
Army -.-.1 100|2 (army, blitz, pillage)
Modern Army -.-.1 130|4 (army, blitz, pillage) Radio

i simply made armies worthwhile to build, also i removed the victorious army requirement from the Military academy so players will actually be able to build a military machine if they wish
_____________________________________

anyways you can check out all of these changes in action in my blitz mod found here

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=34508&pagenumber=1

those are just values i think make the game better, and they are open to change from further playtesting

I'm trying to remain focused on what the designers are likely to find useful for their plans. Assuming they ain't done planning yet

i agree, all efforts at getting firaxis to rebalance the game should come from suggestions that could actually make it into the game, there is alot of ways that units could be balanced but i feel we should only concentrate on what is plausiable

what would u think it would take to get firaxis to seriously reconsider the current unit values and change them to different ones?

[notyoueither]

First reply. Sh*t. Be careful what you wish for. OK, I'm off for an hour or so to examine the preceding.

Salve

[notyoueither]

korn

OK, not quite an hour.

I like the hit points. I think every mod I've seen has had some increases. I hope Firaxis is taking note of this, if indeed it is so wide-spread. I haven't looked at a lot of them though.

I like the simplicity of your vetern unit making buildings. I'm not at all certain that Firaxis will launch into a whole new line of thought by requiring buildings for certain units. However, as Willem indicated, maybe, just maybe.

Interesting, and very well thought out stats. I like how the DD still escorts the ACr and the NukeSub catches up to the CV. Make Nimitz nervous.

My question to you would be, how could the editor be changed to aid you in doing what you really dream of doing? How can Firaxis set you free?

Salve

[notyoueither]

BTW, if they are all listening to us the way Soren seems to be, they might just seriously consider changing the base unit stats. Especially when they examine a number of well thought out mods.

[Edit] But that would have to be Gold or other serious re-release. Have to be able to print new manuals. [/Edit]

Salve

[korn469]

Salve

i really hope you download the blitz mod and playtest it, lockstep and techwins have been great about giving feedback and the more feedback the better the mod is

anyways the parts of the editor that i really feel constrained in is not so much the military parts

there are a few things that could be better

1) different amounts of hitpoints throughout the eras could open up some interesting possibilities

2) more guerrilla war options could also open up some other interesting possibilities

3) a small list of SMAC like unit abilities, things like foot soldiers get a bonus against cities, pikemen have double defense against mounted units, etc.

4) ways to edit armies, so you could grant them combined arms bonuses

5) a way to make a leader not build an army but instead build a commander unit which all armies could have one (and only one) commander and the commander provides +25% to all units in the armies, so you could have a *insert favorite general's name here* leading your army, but the commander would automatically disappear after like 20-50 turns (give an editor option for this)

where i really feel constrained is on the tech, culture, diplomacy, buildings, wonders, specialist, and especially the government side

small touches from civ2 like courthouses giving an extra +1 to happiness really made it impressive

basically, my dream editor would be able to allow the player to recreate the rules (if not the artwork) of any of the previous Civ games (Civ, Civ2 and expansion, SMAC/X) and give this functionality to the player, that would open up a world of possible modifications

as it is, the editor straightjackets the player

[notyoueither]

As I said. I hope they read the whole thread.

Salve

[Deathwalker]

I do like the idea of being able to set special unit atributes like in Civ 2 and SMAP. It was a pitty they all but removed them from Civ 3

[Panag]

Originally posted by notyoueither
Thought re Galley in Ocean.

What were those Vikings sailing in anyway?

Salve

hmmm , howmany would have sunk on the way ?

anyway , where are those extra slots , nowhere , grrr , and all the rest , grrrr , hey , they have some maps , lol , the civ3 site , gets updated , pfffff ones in 3 months , well okay , in 2.5 , still , if they are doing a nice job , then where is the good game , where ?

have a nice day

[notyoueither]

I was going to let this thread sleep with the fishes. Seemed there was not enough interest to keep it going.

Maybe I was wrong. Seems the sea dogs never retire they just slip under the waves.

Anyways, bump.

Salve

[planetfall]

Originally posted by notyoueither
AirRange: Maximum Operational Range in editor needs to be greatly increased from the current 8. To what, 16? 32? 64? Why is it so limited now? You can adjust Movement up to 100. This is a bit different from increases in actual *standard* bic file settings as distributed by Firaxis/Infogrames (they should increase some too). Large increases in the range of the value for this variable will help modders.

How about an option to set range of aircraft as percentage of Modern navy {carrier,BS, AESIS, destroyer}.

Unbalanced play in one game by increasing modern navy to 7-9 tiles per turn. BUT since air can only go to 8. Even running regular patrols, lost a carrier to surprise attack because a BS stack set up just outside my aircraft range and in one turn stack hit my carrier. Should have the option of setting bomber range up to 3x BS and fighter up to
2x BS.

re: planes sinking ships

Get over it. Game play is great now, you need a coordinated sea air campaign to take out ships. Better option add an exercet missile option. Only planes carrying this missile could take out ships. Should be easy to modify tac nuke to provide this capability.
1 tile impact range, no pollution.

[candidgamera]

Originally posted by notyoueither
I was going to let this thread sleep with the fishes. Seemed there was not enough interest to keep it going.

Maybe I was wrong. Seems the sea dogs never retire they just slip under the waves.

Anyways, bump.

Salve

Let's just hope some of this get's considered by the Firaxis people, eh? May not agree with everything here, but am with you
on making seapower better. Too many great powers in history were sea powers for sea power not to be a properly addressed part of civ.

[candidgamera]

For those that don't go to civ fanatics forum, here's some word on planes sinking ships option in the editor:

Dan Magaha FIRAXIS
Firaxian

Registered: Jan 2001
Location: Hunt Valley MD

Not yet. But there will be.


Dan


__________________
Dan Magaha
Firaxis Games, Inc.