pop-rushing and tech trading...

[player1]

Re: Trades

Originally posted by paulmagusnet


I strongly disagree. Go read history, city trading has been quite popular. Ever hear of the Luisiana Purchase or the Alaska Purhase? The Dutch sold S Africa to the British who so bungled integration that they had the Boer War.

The only question is proper valuation of cities and AI goals.

America's relationship with France actually improved, as both Napolean and Jefferson got what they wanted.

THERE SHOULD BE NO ARTIFICIAL RESTRICTIONS ON TRADE, SIMPLY BETTER AI BEHAVIOR.

We SHOULD have sove quantitative idea of the value of what we are asking for and offering beyond cryptic comments from the paper clip person. It's really annoying the way it is currently set up.

Look one nice thread in stratgey forums (and proposed algorithm for AI vs AI city trading).

[Ribannah]

Shouldn't the anger from pop-rushing wear off faster once the city grows beyond the original size?

[Zealot]

About the tech trading

Uh, about the tech trading, does this mean that from now on we have to be in front of the monitor *every* time the AI plays its turn? I mean, they could want to trade a tech in their turn, and the game will stop so we can negotiate.

Isn't this the end of 'time to get a sandwich while the AI plays'? Won't we be forced to be expecting for some AI to talk to us?

[Bloodaxe]

Originally posted by smellymummy


I can see it already: Trying to take over an important city held by the AI, and the siege takes over 4 turns. During these 4 turns the AI drafts and drafts and drafts.... Then once the city is under your control and it repopulates, you have to handle "hell no we won't go!" sporadic civil disorder until the end of the game...

This has already happened to me in the game I just finished. Captured city could not be gotten past 1 pop due to the unhappiness over the draft even with temple/marketplace/cathedral/5+luxuries. Guess I'll just have to live with it.

[smellymummy]

Originally posted by Andrew Cory
The US also bought the whole of Alaska from Russia, about 1/3 of the country from the French (although technical all that was purchased was Frances _claim_ on that territory.), not to mention about 90% of a continent was bought from various native tribes.

about the french *claim*... there were actually some settlements the french had established over the years. If i remember my lessons correctly, the english did not settle that far out west from the atlantic until much later in the colonial days... That left the french easy access (they came in from the st-laurent, to the great lakes, then all the way south).

besides ever notice all those cities with french names all through the middle part of where france had claims. And all the french family names of these regions. These can't all be homages to lafayette, right? Sure the french did not have the numbers, but they sure went out far...

and ever played colonization? So many of the french cities I think it was, were really american citie names, or was that vice versa.. Speaking about colonization, wasnt the guy responsible for that the missing key in civ3 (brian reynolds? a genius imo)? Shame he had to leave.

[Andrew Cory]

Originally posted by smellymummy


about the french *claim*... there were actually some settlements the french had established over the years. If i remember my lessons correctly, the english did not settle that far out west from the atlantic until much later in the colonial days... That left the french easy access (they came in from the st-laurent, to the great lakes, then all the way south).

I belive that you missed the point. Yes, the Americans purchased the French claim, and yes, with that came a lot of cities and settlements and whatnot, but in addition to that, there was a lot of territory the French claimed that various native American nations also claimed. One of the things that America bought with the territory was the right to dispute those native claims. Hence America had to fight the war of 1812 to keep the English from suplying said nations...

[smellymummy]

i dont think i missed the point. I was just trying to paint a nicer sounding picture about the french. Instead of just having a broad notion that the french only claimed the land, they did have people around.

and was that what the war of 1812 was all about? i thought there was more to it than that.

[Andrew Cory]

Originally posted by smellymummy
i dont think i missed the point. I was just trying to paint a nicer sounding picture about the french. Instead of just having a broad notion that the french only claimed the land, they did have people around.

and was that what the war of 1812 was all about? i thought there was more to it than that.

Ah, I got you. Yes, the French did have people there, and yes, we _did_ help pay for the Napolonic wars. Which came in handy for us a few years latter, when it was _just_ enough to distract the English from giving us the whipping they could have had they but the full use of their millitary. (potentialy offensive comments about Laura Secord have been deleted by the poster) *sigh*

But, from the American perspective, the War of 1812 had a few different objectives:
1) Make the British respect American Soveriengty.
2) Keep Europe from playing in the Americas
3) I am sure there was one, but I cannot think of it right now...

That stuff you learned in schools about boats and sailors was mostly BS, BTW...

Intersting side note: On any objective scale, the US lost that war, and yet still mannaged to achive all of their objectives. Seems some bright boy in England realized that it would be smart to have friends in N. America who were not Canucks. Sure does seem far-sided of them at this point, doesn't it?

[barefootbadass]

Originally posted by Bloodaxe


This has already happened to me in the game I just finished. Captured city could not be gotten past 1 pop due to the unhappiness over the draft even with temple/marketplace/cathedral/5+luxuries. Guess I'll just have to live with it.

This really happens? I thought draft/pop rush unhappiness only applied to the civ that did the rushing. It would be something remembered like previous culture in case of a recapture, so you couldn't lose the city and then capture it back to clean the slate, but whoever captured the city would not be affected by your drafts.

Anyway, about the ai, if it hasn't been programmed to shun the draft to avoid negative happiness, it is dead in late game. Deity will really be a joke, for anyone who can survive to nationalism.

[Raion]

And if elected President, I will strive to make this game a quite a few years game, competing with players from around this Planet, and on and on................further more....................and..............if....... ...............

[Arrian]

Soren, if you're listening (well, reading, but you know what I mean) please seriously consider removing or somehow toning down the unhappiness penalty you get when taking an opponent's city that has been abused. I'm currently trying to nurse several Greek cities back to health, but I fear that dear 'ole Alex did too much drafting.

It's just a little much, that's all. I think the patch has moved the game from one extreme to the other. The AI still seems to whip and draft like crazy, meaning there is little reason to actually keep their cities. I've yet to raze any in the game I'm now playing, as I like the new rules regarding suppression cultural reversion. I don't have to raze-n-rebuild all the time.... or so I thought. For the next war, I'm bringin' settlers along.

Drafting should probably go back to a 20-turn penalty, instead of 40. 40 is just brutal. Heck, a Roman city I got via culture flip early on couldn't go past size 1 (with a temple and the 1 citizen still had to be an entertainer) for quite some time, due to some whipping Mr. Caesar had done.

I think that many here would agree with me when I say that most players are VERY annoyed when they get punished for something the (insert putdown here [stupid, cheating, etc.]) AI did. It's not MY fault that Caesar was crackin' the whip. It's only partially my fault that Alex drafted (he attacked me, unprovoked, and lost).

I don't know what to do about what Aeson brought up (just turn one citizen into an entertainer, add captured workers and pump out units... disband later). Such a thing... never occurred to me. Aeson, you warmonger you.

-Arrian

p.s. I haven't played enough yet to make an informed judgement regarding the new AI tech trading, but I can tell you that it's at once annoying and challenging. You do get more of a "all the AI's vs. me" feeling.

[Soapyfrog]

Probably unhappiness due to draft/whip should be cancelled, in whole or in part, when the city changes hands, since the conqueror would be viewed as a "liberator".

Also, a city which has been subject to heavy whipping (or drafting) which changes hands would probably resist a lot less for the same reasons.

These would be nice additions.

[DrFell]

Originally posted by Ribannah
Shouldn't the anger from pop-rushing wear off faster once the city grows beyond the original size?

I think they should just cut it back to 20 turns, and leave it at that. The best way to pop rush as it is is to have the size one taxman city (not that I'm complaining about that, it adds some variety to the way I play).

[player1]

Originally posted by DrFell
I think they should just cut it back to 20 turns, and leave it at that. The best way to pop rush as it is is to have the size one taxman city (not that I'm complaining about that, it adds some variety to the way I play).

It should be 20.
Drafting was OK before.
Now it's something impossibile.

While whiping is even worse. It degrades AI.
I have conquested one American city in ancient era.
And now, I am in Industrial era, and some people are still unhappy because Amrecians whiped their own people 2000 years before.

[belchingjester]

I like both SoapyFrog's and Arrian's ideas. Maybe there's some middle ground - inherit some of the unhappiness but not all?

Of course, if a city is retaken by the perpetrators, they should have to deal with the resentment full force. That might be tricky to do...

Also, now that the happiness incrementing is fixed, why do we have 40 turns? That does make it pretty tough - I agree with making pop-rushing less attractive, but still...

I don't have a problem with the AI tech trading (makes it easier to catch up), but I find it ridiculous (this has been raised other places too) that an AI would be willing to pay me 60 gold for a tech, but would be insulted by 3 gold/turn for 20 turns. Also ludicrous that I could PAY the AI a lump sum, but if I add 1 gold/turn the deal becomes less attractive.

-belchingjester