pop-rushing and tech trading...

[Ming]

I just wanted to point out that Soren Johnson also answered many very specific questions in the following thread started by Lib.

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=42253

I'm sure a lot of people have checked this thread out because Soren started it... so I didn't want people to miss many of the answers he so nicely provided in this other important thread.

Sorry to interupt

[Soren Johnson]

Originally posted by bloodysmurf


Teriffic! Have you made any other adjustments to AI behavior that aren't mentioned in the readme?

Thanks for keeping us informed!

-ollie-

There have been a lot of improvements to the AI, most of which are not really appropriate for the readme (you wouldn't want us spoiling the surprise, would you?)

[Brundlefly]

Originally posted by Soren Johnson Firaxis


Well, I suppose so, but the AI is now _much_ more aggressive about trading techs with each other, on their own turn.

Awesome!

This not only fixes the bug but makes the AI more challenging!


Pembleton, there never was any aspect of trading a tech to all other civs on your turn that could be considered an "exploit". Though some label it as such, I have not seen any good arguments on this board that supports this idea.

Thanks Soren!

[Libertarian]

Soren, I think your work with the AI is outstanding. It is a brutally difficult specification with manifold levels of complexity that are orders of magnitude beyond chess. Well done.

[volcanohead]

Originally posted by Libertarian
Soren, I think your work with the AI is outstanding. It is a brutally difficult specification with manifold levels of complexity that are orders of magnitude beyond chess. Well done.

Agree 100%, leading on to a question. Soren, when you make changes to the AI how do you test to see if there are unforeseen / unwanted side-effects? In something as complex as Civ3 it must be difficult to be completely sure that the intended effect is not producing something screwy elsewhere. And it must be a nightmare to redo this process every time you make a change so do you make several modifications before testing to check them all at once?

[dennis_caver]

AI trading during your turn - Soren



Hi Soren, that's a great start on this diplomacy crippling issue.
What about the other parts of diplomacy during the human turn.

1. Can the AI trade world maps during my turn with the new patch

2. Can the AI trade Commo with other civs during my turn with new patch.

3. Can the AI trade anything or form alliances during my turn.

I can verify that #1 and #2 have occured to me when I was the
first to discover a continent full of new civs on my ship.

Thanks for the new patch,

Caving forever,

Dennis

[Harovan]

Looks like this Friday will be something like Christmas... At this weekend I surely will know nothing about the weather outside and if it's day or night.

[Grumbold]

Originally posted by Feephi
Pembleton, there never was any aspect of trading a tech to all other civs on your turn that could be considered an "exploit". Though some label it as such, I have not seen any good arguments on this board that supports this idea.

Thanks Soren!

I agree. The AI's seemed pretty good at swapping techs with each other already, although it might take them a few turns to get a tech round the world. Selling your own techs for as much as you could get only seemed sensible to keep pace. Now if you'd been getting one nations techs they had yet to spread around and brokered them to the rest of the world for your own gain, that would be an exploit that needed plugging. I'm delighted its back to the way it was at release.

[Soren Johnson]

To further clarify:

the AI's will not trade anything during your turn (techs, maps, goods, etc...)

[Brundlefly]

Originally posted by Grumbold


Now if you'd been getting one nations techs they had yet to spread around and brokered them to the rest of the world for your own gain, that would be an exploit that needed plugging.

Not sure if I agree with you there, Grumbold. Are you talking about a situation where, for example, you have made contact with all civilizations however there are a couple of civs on your continent who have yet to meet the rest of the world on another continent and you sell a tech of theirs to the rest of the world? I make it a priority to seek out all civilizations for purposes of trade as soon as possible. As soon as I get MapMaking, I will send galleys around the world, across open ocean if necessary, losing more than a few, until I make that contact. I do this because of the value of trading in the Civ III game design. If Firaxis can confirm that the AI does not have this same priority then maybe I'll concede that this is an exploit, but I'll have to ask then why doesn't the AI do this?

[dennis_caver]

Ai trades during human turn

Originally posted by Soren Johnson Firaxis
To further clarify:

the AI's will not trade anything during your turn (techs, maps, goods, etc...)

Terrific, I will now play more games after the patch. Diplomacy
is now 'turns' oriented.

Dennis

[Grumbold]

Originally posted by Feephi
I make it a priority to seek out all civilizations for purposes of trade as soon as possible. As soon as I get MapMaking, I will send galleys around the world, across open ocean if necessary, losing more than a few, until I make that contact. I do this because of the value of trading in the Civ III game design. If Firaxis can confirm that the AI does not have this same priority then maybe I'll concede that this is an exploit, but I'll have to ask then why doesn't the AI do this?

The AI is normally faster than I am at going boating, but that may be because I'm playing at a level where they have some advantages. I can see why aggressively persuing that tactic would give you an advantage if you could locate a continent with whom you had exclusive trading potential for a few turns. Then I think of the wealth and power nations like Spain and England had at certain points in history when they had this kind of overseas trade advantage and relax. It's not like you're going to retain it for very long unless you're playing on easy street, and two continents of similar numbers of countries should be at roughly the same level of tech anyway. Its always possible to voluntarily limit yourself to not sailing your triremes out of coastal waters if you like your current difficulty level but this tactic makes it a little unbalanced.

[siredgar]

Originally posted by Rothy
As if they werent enough already

Yes, the AI trade techs with each other freely.

I'm playing a game right now in which I handicapped three civs (Greece, Iran, and Ethiopia) by not allowing them to build settlers. That means they will only have one city each unless they find goody huts with settlers or through conquest (Usually Ethiopia does find one or two more cities because they are expansionist). And yet, they still manage to keep up in the tech race. How can they possibly do this without cheating?

I guess this is okay because I'm playing on the Emperor level and it makes the game more "fun". But it just goes to show the AI have an "old boys network" thing going on.

[Zachriel]

Originally posted by siredgar
I guess this is okay because I'm playing on the Emperor level and it makes the game more "fun". But it just goes to show the AI have an "old boys network" thing going on.

It's not cheating to trade techs. I'm part of the "old boys network" myself. I trade constantly and profitably.

[Grumbold]

Originally posted by siredgar
...they still manage to keep up in the tech race. How can they possibly do this without cheating?

When I'm trading my techs I sell it to everybody, because even if I only get 5 gold its 5 more than I would get if someone else sold the tech to them a turn later. I think the AI is now doing much the same rather than holding out for fixed minimum prices as it may have done in the past, hence the reference to 'more aggressive' trading.