Thoughts on improvements for the end game...!

[Ironikinit]

According to the manual, the AI is supposed to use espionage. As Ralph said, it does at least plant spies, but I've never seen a message that said "City X lost due to espionage" or "Civ Y's spy was captured stealing tech."

Jambo, yes, the space race could be exciting when one civ would launch a full SS looking to get all the points, then another would launch a stripped down one and beat the slower SS by a turn or two. Eventually I learned to watch out for that... but you should've heard me cuss when it happened. More than I cussed when freshly conquered cities flipped, anyway. That was more just bewildering at first.

Propaganda isn't totally useless, but that's not really on topic. Maybe espionage will be beefed up in the future, or at least options added to allow for that in the editor.

It's probably beyond the range of a patch, but Ralph's idea on the UN or another wonder that would allow for more advanced diplomacy would be cool. Also, if there were more ways to score points, something to work for, that might help. Of course, future tech is already there, but I've yet to get any. That's a change from Civ 2 where I often did.

Other possible units: AA battery you could park on your resources to attack bombers, modern armies that can unload units, infiltrators which would be units that appear to belong to other civs for cheap intell, satelites, I dunno what all. Adding units isn't easy, though.

[RickBlaine]

I made similar points about the Modern era a couple of months ago. Not only is that era rather bare of techs and attractive wonders, the SS comes way too early and is way too easy to build. Unless you uncheck the SS victory (and I speculate that this is the most common victory path in Civ3), most of the already thin modern era becomes almost completely irrelevant. I emphatically do not want to join those silly posters who seem to think that Firaxis is the axis of evil (it's only a game, and a reasonably good one at that), nonetheless, the modern era gameplay suggests a real lack of play testing and a rush to get the game out the door for the holidays. At minimum, the SS techs should be moved to the end of the era, and construction should be more difficult (and, if possible, customizable) as in Civ2.

[=DrJambo=]

Re: Re: Thoughts on improvements for the end game...!

Originally posted by Immortal Wombat

I reckon you just want the game more like CtP.

And that it would not improve the endgame significantly at all.

Actually i've never played CtP...!

ShuShu, yeah you're right... i might well experiment with altering the tech tree and making certain spaceship components dependent on advances like Miniaturisation.

[Arrian]

If you move the SS parts back a while, you had better make the rest of the Modern Age more fun. Most of us seem to beeline for the SS and just finish it off (substitute Modern Armor here for warmongers).

My suggestions, aside from the obvious (stacking, for instance):

Automatic, free AI unit upgrades (optional at start of game). Yeah, it's a cheat, but I think it's necessary. Optional so that those who HATE any AI cheat don't have to deal with it.

If possible, get the AI to disband units that don't upgrade to help produce better ones (ironclads -> destoyers, Cav -> Tanks). Or at least disband them so they don't have to pay the upkeep.

Reduce cost of espionage, encourage "aggressive" civs to use it more. Though I admit, I HATE it when the AI steals my tech (Civ II, MOOII). I'll deal with it, though, and I know it would make the AI more competitive.

Having the intelligence agency before your opponent has one should convey an added benifit, but I don't know how that should be done (50% boost to chance of success?).

If possible, having a spy in a civ's capitol should give a low percentage chance per turn of giving you the cheapest tech you don't have.

Remove SETI - once you are ahead, getting this is a foregone conclusion, and do you really need a third "doubles science" wonder? Bah.

Remove Longevity, it sucks.

Add a spacestation (either a 1-shot Wonder or a short series of parts), available after researching Spaceflight. This would give you the old Apollo Program clearing of the fog of war, and some culture, of course. Small Wonder, required for SS win somehow.

Add the Internet - gives a small boost to either science or money, but the major effect is halving the cost of stealing technology (edit: for all civs). Great Wonder, dead end tech off of computers.

If possible, change the UN entirely to function more like the one in Master of Orion II or SMAC. If you lose a vote, there should be an option to fight it out vs. the rest of the world.

-Arrian

[Feanor73]

Originally posted by =DrJambo=


I have found myself creating outlaws (no-nationality swordsmen with Invention) to keep me entertained when at peace.

Can you explain what you mean by this? How does one create rogue swordsmen? Are they similiar to privateers [great idea, but uterly useless with attack of 1]?

[ShuShu]

Non-upgradable units

This is a change I already have made with the editor: Just change cavalry to upgrade to tank and swordsman to either Musketman or Rifleman. Same for Longbowman.

The reason I did this was not to keep the units upgradable, but rather to get them off of the bloody unit list in the later eras.

[Ironikinit]

Arrian,

Personally, I'd like it if the auto upgrade deal for the AI wasn't available as soon as the tech arrives, maybe more like at the dawn of a new era. That would give the AI all muskets and cav (most likely) at the end of the medieval, and infantry at the end of the industrial.

Since we're talking late game, the infantry upgrade is the biggie.

[Arrian]

Ironikinit,

I don't know that doing the AI upgrade by Age is good enough. It would still help a lot, but I don't think it will help enough. The AI needs to have riflemen ASAP, not wait to jump from Musketmen to Infantry upon hitting Modern Times. And what about Mech Inf? Sure, it will build some of the new units from scratch, but underneath it will still have the obselete ones.

Cavalry steamroll Musketmen, so that's why I think riflemen are important for the AI, not to mention turning their horsemen & knights into Cavalry (Far too often I've been hit with a counterattack which contained a couple of Cav, several knights, several horsemen, and some swordsmen).

Yes, I know we are talking about the Modern Age, but the first three Ages set up the Modern Age. If you can't just roll over the AI with Cavalry, you won't be as strong in modern times.

-Arrian

[Immortal Wombat]

Your loss.

Originally posted by =DrJambo=
Actually i've never played CtP...!

Try it. We've come up with some acheivable ways of alleviating endgame tedium.

[Willem]

Originally posted by Ironikinit
.. infiltrators which would be units that appear to belong to other civs for cheap intell, satelites, I dunno what all. Adding units isn't easy, though.

Yes I had that thought too. I've created some colorless units in my game that I can use to whack other civs without being at war. But I've noticed that the AI understands that those are my guys, he just can't make a fuss about it. He gets furious with me everytime I use them. So if I could make a "camoflaged" colorless unit, that the civ I'm attacking would think belonged to someone else, I could really stir up some diplomatic tension between civs. Sort of like in SMAC where your spy could try and make it look like some other faction was responsible.

[Willem]

Originally posted by Feanor73


Can you explain what you mean by this? How does one create rogue swordsmen? Are they similiar to privateers [great idea, but uterly useless with attack of 1]?

Yes, that's exactly how they work. In the editor you just check "Hidden Nationality" in the "Unit Abilities" window to any unit you want to use. You can attack at will without being officially at war. However using them does have an adverse effect on your diplomacy. As I mentioned, the AI knows they're yours, but he can't do anything about it. However, he will immediately attack any of these units he encounters, so they tend to have a very high mortality rate. Plus it also uses them itself, so you have to keep an eye out for them. I've lost several good workers that way.

At least it gives me something to do when peace breaks out.

[Willem]

Originally posted by Arrian

Cavalry steamroll Musketmen, so that's why I think riflemen are important for the AI, not to mention turning their horsemen & knights into Cavalry (Far too often I've been hit with a counterattack which contained a couple of Cav, several knights, several horsemen, and some swordsmen).

Why not just tone down the Cavalry? I've done that with mine after hearing all the complaints, and I don't find them overpowering at all. And it doesn't make sense that a bunch of guys on horseback can travel farther than someone in a Tank. I think that's one of the biggest problems with them right there.

[Pyrodrew]

Balance of Power

I agree with most of the ideas here, especially about the Spaceship being able to be built so early. The United Nations should not be so easily built as well.

Yet, I believe there must be a balance of power for the game to be interesting in the Modern Age. If the AI does not team up against the player who is winning (usually the human), there is no challenge.

AI Civs 1st do not Despot Pop Rush like a human does, this cheap tactic starts to unbalance things.

Midevil Age is where the AI Civs begin to weaken. 1st comes the AI Civs HUGE desire to obtain any & all dead-end techs, which the Midevil Age has several. Even if these dead-end techs had their wonder completed the AI Civs will still sell their soul just to get 1. Likewise, why would a poor AI Civ (most AI Civs are poor) seek to get the Espionage (highly expensive tactics) tech instead of trying to keep up in other areas of the tech tree? It's foolish. This gives the human a good lead & game challenge begins to decrease.

Next, once Cavalry is introduced (usually the human gets this 1st) game balance is weakened even further (Cavalry Steamroll, possible by an AI, but a human does this best). As others have said, a 3speed unit who can retreat with decent stats can seriously give a player tons of land/cities very quick. Cavalry can be superior to tanks in some vital ways.

Once Factories are discovered (again, usually the human gets these 1st) then the strongest get MUCH stronger, widening the gap further. Factories should be weakened.

By the ModernAge, the AI Civs fear the strongest player (human usually) so much & are so weak compared to them there is VERY little challenge... especially since they don't seek a balance of power to stop the player that is winning (usually the human). Additionally, rather than the AI trying to stop the player that is winning & is in the lead, currently the AI only HELPS the strongest player destroy the other AI Civs (Feeding Frenzies). This reduces the challenge even further, making the Modern Age very boring.

Currently, only corruption is the only challenge in the Modern Age. And many people find the heavy distance corruption annoying. And there is very little strategy & ALOT of work just to get 1 shield up to 2. A balance of power would be a far more interesting Industrial Age & Modern Age challenge than Corruption.

[Sandman]

Modern Age: My thoughts

Its ugly. A bare map looks much nicer than the modern era sprawl. There's still lots of unused land in real life, why can't there be 'unspoilt' regions in civ3?

The UN victory is very poorly thought out. Why didn't they use the system from SMAC?

There are too many American units. Only 20 stealth bombers have been built, and there are no more planned. It's like including Zeppelins.

[Libertarian]

A dead-on accurate analogy, Sandman. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.