Thoughts on improvements for the end game...!

[=DrJambo=]

What i have noticed is that all my Civ3 games follow a very similar trend and that is:
1. Build up cities with improvements and culture whilst keeping friends and trading with other civs.
2. Reach mid to late industrial period and run out of city improvements to build...
3. Build military as that's all there is to build.
4. Go to war in the Cavalry, Infantry, Tanks, Modern Ships period.

That always seems to be the way the games seem to work out! Going to war earlier means that the building of useful cultural city improvements suffers, i.e. like Universities, Police Stations, Banks, Wonders, Factories, etc.

What i have realised, is there is a significant lack of depth in the modern era! In the modern era, the main things that new tech brings are new and improved units and other mechanisms of conducting warfare. Also the spaceship comes into the equation a little on the early side, meaning that recycling centres, offshore platforms and the two wonders under Genetics aren't really worthwhile investments. Instead they just waste time.

Now, if i am not at war, my top cities have nothing to build because they have built all the improvements. Instead they just end up building units because there is essentially nothing left to build OR i set them onto wealth. Hence my point is that by this stage the best thing to do is just fight, fight, fight.

SO, how can the modern era be improved?

Here are my thoughts:
1. Expand the modern era making it larger with more tech advances.
2. Bring back improvements like stock-exchange, farmland, superhighways and SDI defence...
3. Make SAM batteries and Coastal Fortresses more useful by making the AI bombard cities as opposed to always bombarding land improvements, which are easily mopped up by workers.
4. Push back the timescale of the game beyond 2050 and make the spaceship parts arrive later.
5. Make aircraft able to destroy naval ships, thereby creating a need to replace a destroyed navy. At the moment once you build a navy that has got control of the seasthere isn't anything that can destroy it other than other ships or cruise missiles.

What ya reckon?

[Harovan]

I would like the spaceship parts to be available not in the beginning and mid of the modern age, but as "future technologies". The space race comes ways too soon, often I don't even build/upgrade to modern armor and radar artillery, because the SS launch is close and there is no need to care about military. I also would like some more small wonders, kind of "Disneyland" (boost of happiness, zero culture ) or similar, and I would like more modern city improvements. The mentioned comeback of the stock exchange and superhighways would be a good start.

Also it would be great to use the UN not only for electing the Secretary General, but I would like to have a living UN, that helps to solve wars and conflicts between other civs by embargoes and intervention, e.g. by giving a civ or an alliance the mandat to intervene in a conflict without a diplomatic penalty, and so on.

In current state, the game is a challenge in the ancient and medieval era, reaches it's peak somewhere in the industrial era and becomes a tedious pain as soon as the modern era begins... sad but true! It would be great to fix this tedium.

[Ironikinit]

There will always be a problem with improving the modern era, and that is the computing power required to track all of the units. Even standard maps slow noticably for me in the later game, so that I'm happy to take the early diplomatic victory.

Not that moving the SS parts to future tech is a bad idea. As has been pointed out, the idea of launching an interstellar colony with today's technology (or less!) is ridiculous.

Civ 2 suffered tedium in the end game as well. I'm not sure that bringing back the late game improvements that it had will fix anything.

[Libertarian]

If the cardinality of units is the source of tedium, why design the game such that they are integral to a successful empire-building strategy? It is like designing a motorcycle with seatbelts and an airbag.

[Harovan]

Originally posted by Libertarian
If the cardinality of units is the source of tedium, why design the game such that they are integral to a successful empire-building strategy? It is like designing a motorcycle with seatbelts and an airbag.

Any constructive thoughts, Lib?

[Libertarian]

By "constructive", do you mean "sycophantic"?

Or do you mean suggestions for improving the game, such as group movement, sensible unit activation sequencing, a more intuitive interface, access to the civilopedia from key strategic screens, a listing queue for critical messages, and other such suggestions that I've made repeatedly?

[Harovan]

That's absolutely necessary, but it would concern the early and mid-game as well. The question of this thread is how to improve the end game (i.e. fight the tedium).

[Libertarian]

The tedium that I experience late in the game is a direct result of fighting the interface (e.g., dismissing the Domestic Nag one city at a time) and the ill-conceived unit management features.

[=DrJambo=]

yes i understand the modern era is problematic.

I just find that when i eventually get the upper hand unit-wise over the AI that i'm warring with it gets a little tedious. ANd by that i mean the ship and bomber bombardment of land improvements and cities.

once the initial naval battle is won, all of a sudden i have a huge navy with nothing really to do! I could bomb the AI's improvements, but that is either futile because their workers will build them back as fast as i destroy them, or boring as i reduce their cities to rubble..

The AI just dosn't build the right units, like fighters to protect their land from my bombers and cruise missiles to destroy my navy which is curently just bombing their coastline improvements turn after turn.

But maybe the solutions aren't so simple.

The one good thing about being at peace in civ2 was that you could play around with diplomats and caravans, setting up trade and embassies.

When you are at peace in Civ3 there is nothing to do, once the improvements are built!?!??! Trade happens on one screen and espionage on another, it was nice when these had to be manipulated on the map with your units...

[Harovan]

Yes, you are right, that's one point, but even with a vastly improved interface and with really(?) intelligent workers there would a problem remain:

In the modern era are no attractive wonders, not much attractive city improvements, you have lots of money, spend it on a large military but... nothing happens. Start a war <-- get penaltized and let your prosper empire suffer from riots. Don't start a war <-- die from the tedium. Mainly I have had fun in the first 3 ages (despite the poor interface), but if I get in the modern age, I have only one goal: GET OUTTA HERE! And that is a poor end of a great game.

Would be great to change this. Any ideas are welcome.

[Ironikinit]

Hey, at least we don't have to wait for the spaceship to actually make the trip anymore.

And we have the UN wonder right at the start of the era, which can make for a quick end, but not the highest scoring one or most certain.

It's a shame that we can't fast forward the game, that is, skip turns until something happens, such as a city running out of its build queue, a rival contacts us about something (be nice to turn that off because mostly they'll want trivial trades like map for map), a trade agreement ends, a wonder is built, etc.

It might help if lagging civs could get free advances to even things up, or if the AI was programmed to be more aggressive with espionage and steal more techs. As Jambo says, some of the AI tactics in war aren't terribly effective and could use tweaking. It could also help if (as has been suggested) the AI was given free unit upgrades. Another possibility would be to allow it to draft offensive units.

Some of those ideas might be terrible, just brainstorming.

[=DrJambo=]

Originally posted by Ironikinit
Hey, at least we don't have to wait for the spaceship to actually make the trip anymore.

Actually sometimes that was exciting! I remember once being by far the biggest civ watching in triumph as i launched my spaceship first to arrive a "guaranteed" first. Only to find that some less well developed civ launched a bigger and better spaceship some years later which beat mine to it!!! Was a great twist to the so called guaranteed victory run-in...

And we have the UN wonder right at the start of the era, which can make for a quick end, but not the highest scoring one or most certain.

Actually i love this new wonder... similar to above i was cruising to a points victory when in 2047 i held an election (shouldn't have in hindsight) and lost to the Ruskies with only 3 years left! Again a nice twist to the so-called guaranteed run-in.

help if lagging civs could get free advances to even things up, or if the AI was programmed to be more aggressive with espionage and steal more techs. As Jambo says, some of the AI tactics in war aren't terribly effective and could use tweaking. It could also help if (as has been suggested) the AI was given free unit upgrades. Another possibility would be to allow it to draft offensive units.

Some of those ideas might be terrible, just brainstorming.

Yeah espionage is one area that is seriously lacking in Civ3. They've taken the thrill of running your hopeful spies around the map in an attempt to gain some vital leverage over a rival civ and replaced it it with a rather disfunctinal single screen system. This also gave another use for naval units, to transport your valuable spies across the globe...spying took some planning in Civ2. In Civ3, the build up is good with the Intelligence Agency and the potential options available are mostly useful:
1. Steal World Map is pointless.
2. Steal plans, investigate city and steal technology are good options albeit all too expensive. Cheaper to trade normally for tech anyways.
3. Initiate propaganda, too expensive and unreliable...better just to do it by force.
4. Find a mole!? This option is horribly implemented, usually leading to war and does the AI actually ever use espionage anyway (not that you would ever know)!? Pointless.


I miss the movable espionage and trade units, giving someone at peace something to do

I have found myself creating outlaws (no-nationality swordsmen with Invention) to keep me entertained when at peace.

Any other ideas for fun units in the modern era to keep one amused during peace?

[ShuShu]

Late Space Ship...

I actually posted the later spaceship in one of my recommendations in Vel thread a ways back.

I believe that would give you plenty of incentive to follow the lower tech track which has the production enhancements.

I then checked out the editor. It can do all this easily. Just change the tech prerequisits for the space ship parts to the later techs in the upper path, and bump up the part costs. I don't have any suggestions for play balance yet as I am still screwing around on deity in an attempt for a peaceful victory . But the capability is there and I definitely intend to playtest it when I step back down to Emperor or Monarch.

[Harovan]

Originally posted by =DrJambo=
4. Find a mole!? This option is horribly implemented, usually leading to war and does the AI actually ever use espionage anyway (not that you would ever know)!? Pointless.

At least it plants spies (as reported when it's caught), whether it uses it is beyond my knowledge.

[Immortal Wombat]

Re: Thoughts on improvements for the end game...!

Originally posted by =DrJambo=
What ya reckon?

I reckon you just want the game more like CtP.

And that it would not improve the endgame significantly at all.