Re-Enchantment....

[Velociryx]

What can I say but WOW! I had no idea I was so long-winded last night! LOL!

Comments all around:

PG: Good points about the companies that use public betas, however, I would say that they're not doing as much as they COULD be. True, a limited public beta (say...pick twenty-five people and let them run with it) does put more eyeballs on the problem, but, imagine how many MORE eyeballs there could be.

And, if the game just REEKS, you'll find out very quickly by opening the initial release to all, cos you'll HEAR about it, en mass.

'bout hurting sales...again, you're right. If they have strong evidence that such a move would hurt sales, it would not behoove anyone to do so! However, I would contend that such evidence does not exist. In fact, I would contend that if you have a winning game on your hands, and you give away the alpha....let people see just how cool it is, and give them the opportunity to put a part of themselves into it by offering ideas for improvement when you ramp...errrr....when you increase the complexity of the design for the commercial product.....well....I can only speak from personal experience here, but if I was given such an opportunity, I can tell you that I'd be among the FIRST in line to buy the commercial release! AND I'd be talking about it with anyone who would listen.

Word of mouth is a tremendously powerful tool, and is the most efficient, effective form of PR there is. If you totally open yourself up to it, you can really take that places. If you act like the troll living under the bridge waiting for the Billy Goats Gruff to pass by, word of mouth can really bite you in the butt!

Skanky! Hey man! And I hope you like the Alpha version of the Mod! It's a whoooooole new ballgame bud! I'm QUITE pleased with what we've been able to do so far, and we've got some killer ideas in the mix for the next iteration!

As to strategy....I think things are at a sufficient point of development that I can once more turn my attention to rooting thru the strategy thread and collecting the latest wealth of ideas from there to post in a new strat thread (since we're over the post limit! Eek!) And, I may start up a side thread, specifically for strategies, post mod. There are a number of things to do differently (the FIRST thing I stumbled into, for example, is using the Barbs--now QUITE terrifying!--as the leading element in an invasion of an AI held city....lead the barbs to the city and let them sack it, then....waltz in behind! LOL

So....my plan is to start combing thru the thread today, and working a bit of copy/paste magic....maybe try to get a doc compiled by today or tomorrow.

Heli - *Outstanding* point re: limiting moddability for the initial release! Can't say that I thought about it in those terms, but you're absolutely right! Well said!

Oh...and please forgive the typos and odd speech patterns from last night....I was on a Nyquil buzz when I wrote all that, and not quite myself...LOL

-=Vel=-

PS: How 'bout if we call them the Council of 5 and the Council of Seven?

Errr....Jackson....5?

[Trifna]

I'm mixed up cuz it seems too nice... but if I really got it, got that you, Vel, was going to build a gaming company, well if so, receive ll my best wishes

PS: Did I got it right?..... At first I thought it was some kind of sarcasm to Firaxis...

[Velociryx]

You got it, and thank you! LOL....the mixup was prolly more on account of the vast quantities of cold meds I was operating under the influence of last night than anything else....it....did something to my writing....

-=Vel=-

[Thoth]

Originally posted by Velociryx
You got it, and thank you! LOL....the mixup was prolly more on account of the vast quantities of cold meds I was operating under the influence of last night than anything else....it....did something to my writing....

-=Vel=-

LOL I haven't seen writing like that since the last time I stayed up for 60 hrs straight....gave me a good belly laugh or two. Love it when the doors of perception open up while the creative fire is burning hot.

I wish you all the best with your venture, I'd offer to help but I'm not sure I have any skills (other than playtesting/ troubleshooting) that would help.

I like the "First fix is free" marketing idea, get 'em hooked then make 'em pay.

[Velociryx]

LOL...Thoth...yep...dat's me...gonna be a virtual crack dealer...errr...sorta...

And shoot man! We'll be needin' plenty of playtesters down the line! If you have the patience for it, you (and anybody else who is stubborn enough to put together a makeshift version of the boardgame) can jump in and give us some ideas now! I'm babysitting servers t'day at work, and brought all my supplies with me, got a five way game up in the server room! It was....cumbersome, as first tests always are, and I had to make up a few new rulings on the fly, but that's to be expected.

All the new rulings are listed in the comment thread for the game (in the "other games" section of 'poly) and I'll be adding the last bit back as soon as we get back from dinner!)

And ohhhh yes! Those doors of perception were wide open last evening! In fact, I'm STILL floating on that creative high! I'm glad it gave you some laughs, too! I re-read what I wrote when I got to the office this morning and was...shakin' my head at some of it!

Thank you for the words of encouragement, and even if you don't feel like wrestling a makeshift version of the boardgame together, we'll see 'bout getting some kinna something whipped together soon that can be played on the 'puter....see how she runs that way!

-=Vel=-

[Cyclotron]

Free... heh, I love that word. Every shirt that I own was procured without paying... and no, I'm not a master shirt thief. Who can resist the mystic attraction of the free T-shirt?

Sounds like an interesting project. I've seen many initiatives like this in all parts of life fail miserably, and I tend to not take these things very seriously... however, I'm not one to pass up free stuff or to turn away from an interesting proposal. I'm willing to help (although I have no usable skills at all , except my "imagination" which everybody says I have too much of... kinda like free shirts...).

Where are you coordinating your creation efforts for this project?

[Spaced Cowboy]

Vel,

Wow, like I have time to read all of your threads on the weekend. Guess that I'll have to wait until I get back to work on Mon. God luck on the game co. I tried to this myself but I was not enough to make a dent in it. Your team approach actually has a chance. Will you have enough time to put into it. It will cut into everything that you do.

The thing that killed it for me was that I was spending more time making games than playing them. That would be good if I had a playable game at any time in the near to distant. Also, when you make your own, it does make it less interesting to play fyi.

I'm finally getting the chance to try the mod this weekend. I'll let you know what I think. Would you consider starting a new strategy thread about the mod.?

Also I saw that someone posted some futuristic weapons. Maybe more techs and more KA units will give the player some incentive to continue in the modern sections.

Glad to see that you are re-enchanted. Sweet!

[Velociryx]

Hey guys! Didn't know who would be looking where, so I figured I'd post this message here as well! (and it answers the question posed about where we're doing the coordinating!)

****
'morning all! Yep...this would be Vel, having pulled an all-nighter testing and hammering the new game into shape! Ran SEVERAL fascinating tests using the system, but I'll not go into all of that now....(subliminal message: but it ROCKS! lol)....just wanted to duck in here to say that I'm relocating the main Candle'Bre discussion over to my forum as I did with the Mod-With-No-Name so we don't muck 'poly up with a gazillion different threads about everything relating to it.

So....for everyone who's helping out, and for anyone who's just curious what we'll be up to over there, here's the link to my place:

The Renaissance Portal

Just click on the "discussion forums" link....Candle'Bre is at the top of the page!

So far, the only things there are a copy of the core rules and a sign-in thread for folks helping out, wanting to help out, considering helping out, or who just wanna put their name on the list...

-=Vel=-
PS to RPM! Thanks for the well-wishing! I'm sure hoping it's gonna happen bud! All I know is that there are an *awful lot* of talented people volunteering to help get this show on the road, and I think that really boosts our chances for success! My fingers are crossed that you're enjoying the mod....the new barbs are *terrifying* so watch out for them!

-V

[Leonidas]

Here's a suggestion Vel:

It might be worth while to begin such an enterprise by first attempting to improve an already existing game that was released a few years ago, and which the company of that game has stopped selling.

For example: Matrix Games did this for Pacific War, War in Russia, and Steel Panthers.

The NWS Team did this for Fighting Steel and Fleet Command.

They essentially looked at a couple of games they wanted to improve, put together a tentative team, and then approached the companies of the games they wanted to work on. They received permission to work on, and improve the games in question, provided NO money was made from them. In return, the game companies provided these teams with code, information, etc.

This might be a way to "get your feet wet", so to speak.

If you're interested in re-doing a strategy game, look at some of the games that have been released over the past few years, and see which ones might be worth re-doing. Imagine the help you would have from this HUGE community!

It might be worth starting a list of the games that are worth re-doing, and start from there.

Anyway, just a few ideas for you. Best of luck

[Velociryx]

An outstanding idea, Leonidas! But, we're already surprisingly far along in our planning for the Candle'Bre project....still, it's something to *strongly* consider doing down the road...Hmmm...MOM anyone?

-=Vel=-

[Skanky Burns]

While we've got the creative juices flowing, I'll add my idea for what we could consider re-doing... XCom One of the earlier versions (1, 2, or 3), back when they were still strategy games

[Velociryx]

Hmmm...cool! I never played Xcom, but sure....::grins:: Heck....it might be an interesting way to draw people to our website (errr...once we HAVE a website)....maybe take one really oldster under our wing and tweak it in our "spare time" and since we're talking older games, we're also talking SMALLER games in terms of overall size, AND, since we can't make any money off of them, we could just sorta put 'em out on the server....sort of a....here ya go...while you're looking around on our site getting' the latest updates and all, here's a cool, dressed up old game....

-=Vel=-

[Willem]

SSI did a number of strategy games back in the Commodore 64 days. I don't even think they're around anymore.

[OneInTen]

I admire your enthusiasm, but I see one big flaw in your reasoning, and it is as follows:

That 10% of games make 90% of the money is not the only 90/10 rule in effect.

It's also that maybe 10% of the fans are the hardcore gamers you're pushing for, 90% of the game purchases are made by casual gamers.

Those 10% of sales you're chasing by polling the hardcore fans for ideas (who despite buying 10% of the games aren't even 10% of the game buying population, ie they're a small focus group) may (and most likely will) hurt the area you need to make the bulk of your sales in to be a success.

With the amount of money it costs to produce a commercial quality game these days, you really can't afford to just chase small niches of the market, you have to make some concessions to the mass market and make the game something everyone will enjoy, not just a small group of hardcore fans.

In any case, I susspect you'll fall into the "can't please all the people, all the time" trap in listening to the public while making your game. People tend to have a lot longer memory for the one time when you went against their idea than the previous 9 times when you listened, so very quickly you get a whole heap of disappointed fans, who you infact listened to 90% of the time!

The great games have been because one person or a small group of people followed their vision, not because a whole lot of people got together and designed a game by commitee. I know there's always got to be a first that sets a new trend, but I'd be very careful to understand the risks involved before committing any money to such a venture (you're talking about making a company which implies putting down your money to make it happen, right?)

[Velociryx]

Hmmm....you make excellent points, OneInTen! And I'd not disagree with your core point about not being able to please everybody all the time AND about NOT designing a game by committee. Both of those things are very dangerous traps to fall into, and I'll be working pretty hard to avoid them as our project continues to move along (and so far, it's moving along pretty well, just to keep everybody updated!)

Here's how we're going about it:
1) We've got a well defined vision, and we're gonna follow it. I've made my vision of the game very clear both in the design of the rules themselves, and in my descriptons of the kind of evetual interface/atmosphere I want the game to project. The key, as you said, is in getting everybody on the same page, vision wise, and running with it.

The trap to that, however, the other side of that coin is that if your vision is not one that a lot of people can readily "get into" you wind up with exactly what you described.....a niche game, at best. At worst....a game that the people on the design team like to play, but nobody else really does.

So....to avoid that, once we've got a crystal clear image of what the vision IS, then we open it up to the public and do a little show and tell. Not quite the same thing as "design by committee" cos the groundwork is already in place...the spirit of the vision MUST be maintained, and so, even if a *highly* popular feature is clamored for, if it just doesn't "fit" with the game in question...if it is not in the spirit of the game's vision, then the answer has got to be, "It's a cool idea, but not for this game."

But if you get lots of people jazzed up about the vision you start with, you'll get few, if any sugesstions that fall outside those bounds in any case (or at least that was my experience when we were putting together the alpha for the Mod-With-No-Name). Everybody knew what kinds of things I was looking for, and those were generally the kinds of sugesstions and ideas we got.

So...we keep everybody on the same page, we *should* avoid the first pitfall you mention, and as to the second....you're right. There's a world of difference between a hardcore gamer and a casual gamer, however, they do have things in common. Civ2 attracted both types, for example. And there have been many other 4x games that have and do. I think the easiest way to avoid catering so much to the hardcore group at the expense of the casual group is to make the game accessible. Deep, complex game play, yes, but make it largely under the hood. You can get to it if you wanna (hardcore) but if you just want to play a good game and not worry about all the details, you don't have to (casual). Not that you can please them both absolutely all the time, but they do share things in common that can be played to.

But, as the story continues to unfold, I shall continue to report back here how things are going, and it is my *sincere* hope that one day....maybe sooner than I realize....I'll come back here with a link to a file that can be downloaded and played....

THAT would rock....

-=Vel=-
(pluggin' away!)