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  • I agree that methods of warfare are technology. One of the main reasons that the Spanish did so well against the Aztecs was that their weapons were designed to kill, not to subdue. The Aztecs were used to warfare for the sake of capturing prisoners, where the opposing armies would line up opposite each other and pummel away with clubs, darts and stones until one side or the other paniced. They were no match for the discipline and combined arms of the Spanish, especially since their own superstition undermined their morale. By the time they began to realize that the Spanish were not superhuman most of their allies had deserted them, and quite a few had joined the Spanish. Additionally, Cortes was no dummy, and modified his own tactics as well, making very good use of the light naval cannon he had to rip bloody holes in the enemy lines.

    A force which is formed on the principles of total warfare will have a huge advantage over a force formed on the principles of ritual warfare.

    Europeans were also very adept politically. They knew that their very presence meant that whatever equalibrium there had been in a region previously was gone. There arrival spurred countless deadly wars as native peoples fought for access to European goods (e.g. North America, West Africa) or sought goodwill and protection in exchange for military or logistical assistance in a case where the Europeans engaged in combat with another local people. This was the truest form of leverage used by the Europeans to take over most of the known world in a few centuries, with military technology being the smaller lever which moved this larger one.

    I agree with most that the battles of Port Arthur, Tsushima, Dien Bein Phu, and the massive Chinese offensive in Korea in 1950 were all between opponents who were fairly equivalent in terms of weapons tech deployed, and thus are merely just good examples of another way one can underestimate an enemy, which is to say the Westerners in these instances underestimated the enemy's battle capabilities in terms of doctrine, technology and logistics.

    I disagree with those who rate the Mongols of Ghengis Khan as technologically primitive. Consider the fact that I consider superior doctrine to be a tech advantage, and the fact that the Mongols possessed an unrivaled military machine capable of completely routing an enemy force from anywhere in the world while outnumbered. The central Europeans were lucky that Ghengis died when he did, for no one was able to stop the screening force sent to cover the approach of the Mongol main body (they though the screen was in fact the main body, and there was plenty of panic as it crushed two attempts by large forces to beat it). The Mongol method of warfare was IMO the most sophisticated the world had seen up to that time, and was only surpassed in it's effectiveness by Napolean's.
    He's got the Midas touch.
    But he touched it too much!
    Hey Goldmember, Hey Goldmember!

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    • Originally posted by Sikander
      I agree that methods of warfare are technology. One of the main reasons that the Spanish did so well against the Aztecs was that their weapons were designed to kill, not to subdue.
      The concept is referred to as "pitched warfare." It was invented by the Greeks and independently derived by the Zulus. It would certainly qualify as a technology.

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      • The more "primitive" form of warfare is referred to as "skirmish warfare."

        The bravery of the individual combatants is the issue with skirmish warfare. Battlefield organization is usually quite weak, and battles are not always resolved by everyone jumping into the middle.

        Think David and Goliath.

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        • Originally posted by Sikander
          I disagree with those who rate the Mongols of Ghengis Khan as technologically primitive. Consider the fact that I consider superior doctrine to be a tech advantage, and the fact that the Mongols possessed an unrivaled military machine capable of completely routing an enemy force from anywhere in the world while outnumbered.
          I suppose it all depends on what you include or exclude. If doctrine and training is 'tech' then the slave revolt and Germanic destruction of the legions are good examples, as would be the battles that ensued during the development of more and more advanced phalanx tactics in ancient Greece. If training and doctrine are not considered tech then the Mongol defeats of knights are possible candidates.
          To doubt everything or to believe everything are two equally convenient solutions; both dispense with the necessity of reflection.
          H.Poincaré

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          • Originally posted by Grumbold


            I suppose it all depends on what you include or exclude. If doctrine and training is 'tech' then the slave revolt and Germanic destruction of the legions are good examples, as would be the battles that ensued during the development of more and more advanced phalanx tactics in ancient Greece. If training and doctrine are not considered tech then the Mongol defeats of knights are possible candidates.
            Well, they are referred to as hordes. Settled peoples of the time considered them barbarians. Nevertheless, their battlefield techniques were superlative. They mastered the horsearcher, requiring large, strong horses, the stirrup and extensive training.

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            • I guess that it's a little hard to get real numbers, because of lack of informations and different way of couting troops. On of the main difference is that even if you consider that the Viets had no more than 50-60 000 soldiers trained and equipped, they also had 75 000 people to carry supply, weapons, ammo and the like. So you can consider that either they were only 50 000 if you restrict to the fighting teams, either 125 000 if you expand to all the men that participated to the battle in any ways.
              Let's take only fighter teams. Because we are talking of what attacks

              Do you know if the number of death and wounded included only fighting teams?
              Last edited by Trifna; January 11, 2002, 12:32.
              Go GalCiv, go! Go Society, go!

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              • Originally posted by Trifna
                Let's take only fighter teams. Because we are talking of what attacks

                Do you know if the number of death and wounded included only fighting teams?
                The definition of a soldier is actually somewhat gray. Non-military personnel were used to transport supplies, including weapons. Many military personnel did not have uniforms or insignia.

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                • ok the main reasons that i think that both Dien Bien Phu should count is the follow reasons

                  first a little history of Vietnam

                  1802: After pushing back the Tay Son with the help of French mercenaires recruited by Jesuit Pigneau de Behaine, Nguyen Anh (the only survivor from the massacre of the Nguyen by the Tay Son brothers) changes his name to Gia Long and starts the Nguyen dynasty. The capital of the unified country is now Hue.
                  1858: The French navy attacks Da Nang.
                  1867: Cochinchina (the South) becomes a French Colony.
                  1883: Tonkin (the North) and Annam (the Center) become French protectorates.
                  1887: Creation of the Indochina Union, Cochinchina, Annam, Tonkin, Cambodia, and latter Laos.
                  1932: Bao Dai, the last emperor, begins his reign as an infant.
                  1940: Invasion of Indochina by Japan. The French administration collaborate and continue to run the government.
                  1941: Ho Chi Minh starts the Viet Minh. Leninism is thought of as an ideological weapon to serve Vietnamese nationalism against French colonialism.
                  1945 (March 9): The Japanese end up French authority. (Aug 19): The Viet Minh starts a general popular insurection. Bao Dai abdiquates. (Sept 2): Ho Chi Minh declares independance in Hanoi (US agents stand at his side) (Sept 23): The French authorities reoccupy the South.
                  1946: After the failed Fontainebleau conference between Ho Chi Minh and the French government, notably about the question of the status of Cochinchina, and the bombing of Haiphong (6000 killed), the war between the French troops and the Viet Minh for the control of Vietnam begins.
                  1954: The bulk of the French army is defeated at Dien Bien Phu (this is the first time in history a colonial power is militarily defeated, a massive decolonization follows worldwide). At the Geneva conference, the country is partitioned at the 17th parallel as an interim stage. The North becomes the Democratic Republic of Vietnam, a communist state supported by China and the USSR (the strict communist ideology began to prevail at the 2nd congress of the Vietnamese labor party in 1951)
                  So Vietnam never had independence and the Viet Minh were a guerilla army supported by the Communist Government of China, which had only been in power for 5 years in 1954, and out of those 5 years had been fighting against US forces in Korea for over two of them

                  Although both France and Vietnam had been occupied in World War 2, but it was France that took part in the Marshall Plan, not Vietnam so industrially the French government was in much better shape to fight the war in Vietnam

                  The French had complete Air Superiority at Dien Bien Phu and all they had to deal with was Viet Minh AAA (which proved too much)

                  The Viet Minh were using 105mm howitzers captured by the Chinese from the US during the early part of the Korean war, and in 1954 the French still had a 5:1 advantage in terms of artillary


                  Although France had basically lost the war before Dien Bien Phu even took place, the French still had technological superiority over the Viet Minh and if they had been less arrogant and better lead they should have won that battle as well

                  as for the nature of non combatants it's fine to list them but i do think a differnce between them and front line troops should be made

                  that being said, does anyone disagree with the following statement?

                  that the french had betwwen 10-16k troops at DBP
                  the Viet Minh had between 40-50k troops and about 35k support personale

                  Comment


                  • I think that VietNam may have an importance when looking forward to a good battle system because of a particularity: environment. It shows at which point results of battle may be different. Same for Russia, same for Iroquois and other Amerindians in eastern Canada and certainly many other cases. They normally should be the more extreme results for battles implicating similar troops.
                    Go GalCiv, go! Go Society, go!

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                    • Originally posted by Zachriel


                      The definition of a soldier is actually somewhat gray. Non-military personnel were used to transport supplies, including weapons. Many military personnel did not have uniforms or insignia.
                      Well here we are talking of a military unit against annother. Thus, we need to consider what is military only (in the perfect case). This is to know what it does when we have cavalry vs tank, etc., so we can have a better idea of battles.

                      Right? Wrong?
                      Go GalCiv, go! Go Society, go!

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                      • Originally posted by Trifna


                        Well here we are talking of a military unit against annother. Thus, we need to consider what is military only (in the perfect case). This is to know what it does when we have cavalry vs tank, etc., so we can have a better idea of battles.

                        Right? Wrong?
                        If we're talking about units against another, then Dien Bien Phu would be :

                        French :
                        1 elite infantry
                        1 artillery
                        2-3 bombers
                        1-2 fighters
                        1 veteran infantry
                        1 regular infantry

                        Except for aircrafts, all are fortified on a jungle tile with a fortress.

                        Viet-minh :
                        10-12 infantry units (most are conscripts, some are regular, one or two are veterans).
                        3-4 artilleries
                        2-3 fighters (as there is not any anti-air unit, they just symbolises the AA guns).
                        All of them are fortified on mountains tiles.

                        Then, Civ3-wise, this is a perfectly normal situation with not even enough tech difference to justify a lower tech level unit. When we think about it, what make people jump are not infantry defeating infantry, not even riflemen defeating infantry, it's pikemen defeating tanks or longbowmen defeating infantry. And not even with 7 to 1 advantage in numbers, but a mere 2 to 1 or even 1 to 1.

                        Seems that after 4 pages of historical examples, we are to the final conclusion that NEVER EVER such abnormal results happened.
                        Science without conscience is the doom of the soul.

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                        • Seems that after 4 pages of historical examples, we are to the final conclusion that NEVER EVER such abnormal results happened.
                          In fact, I didn't even thaught we would find any exemple. just needed to prove it and, since we're at it, make a database that can be used thereafter.

                          About how to count number of men in an army, I don't wanna transfer in Civ terms since we want to evaluate Civ in comparison to History. But (ideally) more in term of number of men of each group. I think that we have a large enough database to say that a lower unit has great disadvantage except if there's a whole bunch (since number of troops is annother factor). What I'd try to do now is having enough data to evaluate at which point a certain type of unit could beat annother.
                          Go GalCiv, go! Go Society, go!

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                          • Originally posted by Akka le Vil
                            Seems that after 4 pages of historical examples, we are to the final conclusion that NEVER EVER such abnormal results happened.
                            We must be a special subset of the Civ community.

                            What about the Zulus v. British at Iswandland, the loss of the U.S.S. Cole to a small boat, the loss of a B1b Bomber in the recent conflict in Afghanistan?

                            As far as the number of people in each unit, that will vary considerably. Napoleon fielded a million man army. The U.S. with a much larger population fields an army with far more firepower, but only composed of a few thousand soliders.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Zachriel


                              We must be a special subset of the Civ community.

                              What about the Zulus v. British at Iswandland, the loss of the U.S.S. Cole to a small boat, the loss of a B1b Bomber in the recent conflict in Afghanistan?

                              As far as the number of people in each unit, that will vary considerably. Napoleon fielded a million man army. The U.S. with a much larger population fields an army with far more firepower, but only composed of a few thousand soliders.
                              Look the thread a little up. Zulus v Briish are included. Now, ook at numbers...
                              For Napoleon, they generally had similar weapons as I know.
                              For the rest, you should give more information: maybe useful. Maybe they had anti-air against the bomber, maybe they were armed pretty well in ure boat, etc.
                              Go GalCiv, go! Go Society, go!

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                              • Originally posted by Trifna


                                Look the thread a little up. Zulus v Briish are included. Now, ook at numbers...
                                For Napoleon, they generally had similar weapons as I know.
                                For the rest, you should give more information: maybe useful. Maybe they had anti-air against the bomber, maybe they were armed pretty well in ure boat, etc.
                                No the bomber just had mechanical problems. But it was lost in combat just the same. The boat was just a boat filled with explosives which they acquired from us, but the Cole was destroyed just the same.

                                You can explain away the bad results, but the bad results are still there. When John Paul Jones captures the frigate with a merchant vessal, of course mistakes were made, but Jones still has the ship, the victory and the glory.

                                Of course, the Zulus outnumbered the British on the battlefield, but isn't that the point. The British split their forces. The men were still dead. The unit still destroyed.

                                Indeed, you always try to destroy your enemy "in detail," meaning piece by piece. Why do you want to fit reality into this jaundiced view that the technology is the only relevant factor?

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