But Seriously

[Grrr]

How about this. Civ3 was released as a beta. That's right. You and me were asked to pay for a beta. Unfinished, unpolished, beta. Only we were not asked to pay for a beta. We were promised a nice shiny box, with promises of civ greatness inside. And some of us are p*ssed that that's not what we got. And some of us are p*ssed that Sid isn't eating dirt because of it. Well, I'm not.

I'm not p*ssed. I have heard how CTP2 bankrupted its designers and/or some others involved in that project. They dumped a lot of effort (money!) on the initial release. Man, we had techs all the way till 2200, woohoo. Sales did not go well. They did not have the resources to follow-up. They shot the roll. It wasn't good enough (for us). They folded. Do you want to invest in this?

I do not expect any company to risk suicide on the civ public after that. I do not expect it to be finished. In fact I would favour an interactive design process between the programmers and the dedicated fans. I'm happy to pay for a beta of a game I love. Hey, I've bought 2 copies so far (actually got a would be pirate to buy one from me). Only Firaxis has to deal with the realities of payrolls and Infogrammes. They can't say beta. It is kind of obvious, at least to me, that Firaxis was not in control of the time-table. Let's see, October release, November, CHRISTMAS. OK October or nothin.

Alright, so instead of Sid and the team working their buts off, they would rather US go bankrupt. I went to every Electronics Boutique, **** Smith, Computer City, Harvey Norman, and private computer games store in the North Island, and finally on the 26th of December I found my copy in the Bargain Bin at The Warehouse Manukau for NZ$55 (approx US$23), so I don't really CARE about their late release, I got it LATE anyway, so they might as well have finished it. And as for computer game companies going bankrupt, what about canceling DINOS, firaxis invested heavilly in this.

[N. Machiavelli]

This FlameWar was rated 5 stars? Who the hell rates these things?

Seriously though guys, why are we having this same tired, endless discussion AGAIN? The points have been made ad nauseum by both sides. Few minds are ever going to be changed, and if they are, it will be by the actions of Firaxis, not by the flaming words of folks on this forum. Get over yourselves. Unfortunatly, nothing we say, complain, or defend here will make any impact upon how the game is developed....the lack of action thus far has proven that at least.

I haven't played Civ3 in about 3 weeks. I was able to 'tweak' it enough to be satisfied with playing it. However, the mysterious crashes every 5 or so turns pushes the limit of my patience.

Why do I still post here? Like Lib. I stop by once in a while in the remote chance that mabye, just mabye, that the developers have taken what a great portion (if not the majority) of players have been clamoring about since the game was released.

[Ironikinit]

Never mistake the people you happen to know for a representitive sample of the population.

Never mistake volume for quality.

Keep in mind that while a topic might be played out for you, some of us have arrived late and have an itch to discuss it. I'll try to keep that in mind as well, Nicolo.

[N. Machiavelli]

Originally posted by Ironikinit
Keep in mind that while a topic might be played out for you, some of us have arrived late and have an itch to discuss it.

All the more power to you. The thing is that the 'late arrivers' aren't the ones repeating the same threads over and over again. Notyoueither, Venger, Libertarian, etc are the same ones beating a dead horse. If you wish to raise a discussion, super. But the 'veterens' have been arguing over the same crap since day one and still continue. If this is the route we take, why the hell should we expect Firaxis to listen to us?

[Ironikinit]

Fair enough. I retract my third point and apologize. I should've taken a closer look at the situation.

[Venger]

Originally posted by N. Machiavelli


All the more power to you. The thing is that the 'late arrivers' aren't the ones repeating the same threads over and over again. Notyoueither, Venger, Libertarian, etc are the same ones beating a dead horse.

What horse are you beating? I haven't played the game or been active on these boards for well over two weeks, and I don't recall there being a prerequisite of clearing post content with you, either. Most of my posts lately have been related to other games, namely CTP2, and how they relate to Civ3.

Is your tantrum any more valid than mine?

Venger

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by N. Machiavelli


All the more power to you. The thing is that the 'late arrivers' aren't the ones repeating the same threads over and over again. Notyoueither, Venger, Libertarian, etc are the same ones beating a dead horse. If you wish to raise a discussion, super. But the 'veterens' have been arguing over the same crap since day one and still continue. If this is the route we take, why the hell should we expect Firaxis to listen to us?

Well actually, my point was about what the future will bring.

Will people continue to support the game and its development?

Do some of the critics realize that their venom may have a negative effect on the future of Civ?

Can we try to move beyond the petty bickering so that we can all get more out of Apolyton and Civ? And then the bickering immediately broke out between me and Lib. But I think I've put that behind me.

The real point is what can we do to make civ better? Who? Us, the gamers? What the h*ll can we do? Well, we do have an influence. Firaxis is more than willing to listen to us. They have demonstrated that. They are very closed mouthed, but they do appear to have open ears.

Discussion? That helps. Suggestions? Great. Found a bug? Wonderful, report it. Comment on what we like and dislike? That's a big part of what forums like this are for.

Venom and vitriol, whether directed at Firaxis or their detractors? Nope. Isn't helping. Could hurt.

The point is that we the gamers have the power to encourage the development of Civ. Each of us should do that in our own way. And each of us should consider if we are actually encouraging that development.

This deserves repeating:

If this is the route we take, why the hell should we expect Firaxis to listen to us?

Salve

[yin26]

"Gee, our feelings are hurt by those guys at Poly. Let's pack up our bags and not rape them anymore with our shoddy piss-ant excuses for games."

Good riddance.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by yin26
"Gee, our feelings are hurt by those guys at Poly. Let's pack up our bags and not rape them anymore with our shoddy piss-ant excuses for games."

Good riddance.

Not feelings. Motivation.

Or maybe the business decision to stop listening to some or all of us.

One way to develop civ would be to listen to the fan base and make a greater civ.

An alternate strategy for capitalizing on the civ trademark would be to say to h*ll with the hard core gamers. Develop simple titles, advertise on TV and pitch exclusively to the novices.

The problem from my point of view, is that it may indeed become *good riddance*. Good riddance to us.

Salve

[N. Machiavelli]

Originally posted by Venger


What horse are you beating? I haven't played the game or been active on these boards for well over two weeks, and I don't recall there being a prerequisite of clearing post content with you, either. Most of my posts lately have been related to other games, namely CTP2, and how they relate to Civ3.

Is your tantrum any more valid than mine?

Venger

Tantrum? Good lord son. The only reason I mentioned your name is because you have been one of the most vocal (and obnoxious) posters since the begining. If for the last 2 weeks you have been on hiadus forgive me, for I have been the same. I rarely post anymore, but everytime I come back, there's the same 'discussion' making the same points, insulting the same people, by the same folks who have chips on their shoulders on both sides. Then it turns violent.

I made a 'tantrum', as you so eloquently call it, noting the futility of de-evolving into a flame war yet again. Then you get defensive and flame. It wasn't a demand, it was a request. For the sake of civility do you think, just once, that we could comment on the game without hurling insults at one another? Crazy thought, I know.

Venger, I've agreed and supported your views since I came here. But calm down mate. Getting defensive against me, or notyoueither, or anyone is not going to have any effect upon the 'man-behind-the-curtain' people at Firaxis. The fact that I agree with Notyoueither on *anything* scares me half to death, but can we at least pretend we are mature towards one another?

[Sze]

Originally posted by notyoueither
Well actually, my point was about what the future will bring.

Will people continue to support the game and its development?

Do some of the critics realize that their venom may have a negative effect on the future of Civ?

It's unfortunate that this happened with a title that we all looked forward to so passionately. The reason venger, Lib, and the others are so vocal is because a stand has to be made. You realize that many of us pre-ordered a game not knowing it was incomplete? Not knowing it had holes in it big enough to drive a tank through?

There was a time when games weren't sold until they were 100%. Now that they can just patch an unfinished game later, they can get away with releasing too early. Well that doesn't sit well with me. I don't want to pay to be a beta tester. Speaking up loudly is one way to get publishers to realize that they're going to suffer in the long run if they force something out the door. I badmouth Civ3 on every other message board I participate in. I want people to know that the 9/10 reviews Civ3 is getting are bogus and that the game is far from being complete.

Should I feel guilty for not supporting the 'Civ franchise'? I don't. If Civ3 sold very well (enough for a Civ4), what makes you think they would put out a finished product the next time? Firaxis may or may not care about the feedback they get on these forums, but you can bet your ass Infogrames cares about the $ feedback. I hope they get the message that gamers are customers, not beta-testers and bottom pits of money. If Civ4 comes out in 2007, I'll wait til 2008 to see if it's worth getting.

Should I feel guilty about not supporting Firaxis? I don't. I realize the early release is not their fault, but they are at fault for other reasons. They probably underestimated the time it would take to make the game; misapportioned resources (like theose silly after-game talking portraits); made poor design decisions (corruption, cultural reversion during war, etc...); and coded a lousy AI (too numerous to mention). Their attitude on Apolyton isn't helping them gain support either.

The real point is what can we do to make civ better? Who? Us, the gamers? What the h*ll can we do? Well, we do have an influence. Firaxis is more than willing to listen to us. They have demonstrated that. They are very closed mouthed, but they do appear to have open ears.

They already have more than enough feedback. There are so many shortcomings it'll take them a year to catch up with what we hoped we were buying last year.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Sze


It's unfortunate that this happened with a title that we all looked forward to so passionately. The reason venger, Lib, and the others are so vocal is because a stand has to be made. You realize that many of us pre-ordered a game not knowing it was incomplete? Not knowing it had holes in it big enough to drive a tank through?

I bought the same game under the same conditions. I see no problem with anyone being unhappy about it. I am not, that's all.

There was a time when games weren't sold until they were 100%. Now that they can just patch an unfinished game later, they can get away with releasing too early. Well that doesn't sit well with me. I don't want to pay to be a beta tester. Speaking up loudly is one way to get publishers to realize that they're going to suffer in the long run if they force something out the door. I badmouth Civ3 on every other message board I participate in. I want people to know that the 9/10 reviews Civ3 is getting are bogus and that the game is far from being complete.

And there was a time when there were no warez sites on the internet. And there was a time when an unhappy customer would not be sticking the knives in the developers via their own mass medium (the internet). I think I can see how the changing risks of game publishing might lead to changes in development and publishing strategy. Spend too much on development before you know if you are likely to have a winner and get cleaned. Hence, I do not mind paying for a Beta.

BTW, is it just my memory, or is the sticker price of Civ3 on release lower than the sticker on Civ and Civ2 (on release)? I guess not all of the changes in publishing are bad.

Oh, and BTW. I was jonsing (sp?) so bad by Oct 29-30 that I had someone at work watch some warez servers for it. I just wanted the game NOW and thought it might have leaked early. Yep, it did. We watched as it hit various servers on the evening of the 29th. Guess what, no luck for me. Those servers with the game were way too busy. We gave up. Went to a local store and talked a junior staffer into giving me one on the 30th (nice guy). How many who downloaded went and bought a copy? Care to guess?

Should I feel guilty for not supporting the 'Civ franchise'? I don't. If Civ3 sold very well (enough for a Civ4), what makes you think they would put out a finished product the next time? Firaxis may or may not care about the feedback they get on these forums, but you can bet your ass Infogrames cares about the $ feedback. I hope they get the message that gamers are customers, not beta-testers and bottom pits of money. If Civ4 comes out in 2007, I'll wait til 2008 to see if it's worth getting.

Should I feel guilty about not supporting Firaxis? I don't. I realize the early release is not their fault, but they are at fault for other reasons. They probably underestimated the time it would take to make the game; misapportioned resources (like theose silly after-game talking portraits); made poor design decisions (corruption, cultural reversion during war, etc...); and coded a lousy AI (too numerous to mention). Their attitude on Apolyton isn't helping them gain support either.

They already have more than enough feedback. There are so many shortcomings it'll take them a year to catch up with what we hoped we were buying last year.

I have no problem with anything you've said Sze, but most especially with the way you've said it. No, you shouldn't feel guilty about anything that you wrote. Far from being unproductive, you stated your likes and dislikes. These are valuable for the developers too.

What you didn't do is launch a vitriolic attack on the developers or the game or those who like the game. It's appreciated. Thanx.

re the finished product. I would be surprised if I every buy a finished game again. The internet is too big and easy for people to access. Therefore patching over the internet is such a viable strategy that it will become the norm (if it hasn't already).

Salve

[notyoueither]

re: Feedback

Sze

Actually, the bug hunt is still going. Some guy recently figured out how to have an empire with no capital and no corruption. Oops.

Yes, the major things that everyone wants (group movement) have been identified, but there's a lot to this game and a lot more to discover.

Salve

[Grrr]

Re: re: Feedback

Originally posted by notyoueither
Actually, the bug hunt is still going. Some guy recently figured out how to have an empire with no capital and no corruption. Oops.

I wouldn't mind knowing how . Finally someone has found a solution to our coruption problems.

[notyoueither]

Re: Re: re: Feedback

Originally posted by Grrr


I wouldn't mind knowing how . Finally someone has found a solution to our coruption problems.

Sorry, should have given this before. Look here:

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=39208

Salve