But Seriously

[notyoueither]

But seriously, folks...

To the fans (myself included): do you think this is the best they can do? Of course it's not!

Stacked movement. That would be good.

A more interesting Modern Era. That would be good.

Better Worker AutoOrders. That would be good.

More information in many parts of the interface. That would be good. For instance, Stack of Workers, Right click, see what they are doing (ie Irrigation, Pollution, etc). For instance, what resources are in demand by whom. Trade Advisor? Trade Advisor? You mean you don't know this? You're fired!

Many more great things. They would be good.

To the critics: is it that bad? Come on Lib, even you can figure out how to move units in a stack one after the other without being distracted by other stacks (hint; right click, start with the bottom unit on the list).

So you don't like moving unit after unit after unit. So tell me, what was so great about civ or civ2? I assume that anyone who comments on this thread will have played and loved civ or civ2. So why the different standard re unit movement mechanics in civ3? I'm curious.

So you don't like corruption. Neither did I, but it can be managed, especially with the editor if you want to depart from the herd.

So you don't like the combat system. Honestly, how many times has a Spearman destroyed one of your Modern Armour. I'm not asking how often it has been possible to happen. I am not asking if you have nightmares of it happening. I am asking how many times it has actually happened. Now, how many times out of 100 or 1000 is that?

Is there anything the fan-boys and the critics can agree?

How about this. Civ3 was released as a beta. That's right. You and me were asked to pay for a beta. Unfinished, unpolished, beta. Only we were not asked to pay for a beta. We were promised a nice shiny box, with promises of civ greatness inside. And some of us are p*ssed that that's not what we got. And some of us are p*ssed that Sid isn't eating dirt because of it. Well, I'm not.

I'm not p*ssed. I have heard how CTP2 bankrupted its designers and/or some others involved in that project. They dumped a lot of effort (money!) on the initial release. Man, we had techs all the way till 2200, woohoo. Sales did not go well. They did not have the resources to follow-up. They shot the roll. It wasn't good enough (for us). They folded. Do you want to invest in this?

I do not expect any company to risk suicide on the civ public after that. I do not expect it to be finished. In fact I would favour an interactive design process between the programmers and the dedicated fans. I'm happy to pay for a beta of a game I love. Hey, I've bought 2 copies so far (actually got a would be pirate to buy one from me). Only Firaxis has to deal with the realities of payrolls and Infogrammes. They can't say beta. It is kind of obvious, at least to me, that Firaxis was not in control of the time-table. Let's see, October release, November, CHRISTMAS. OK October or nothin.

So the questions are:

1: Can the fan boys be objective enough to give Firaxis some much needed help? Not surprisingly, they are asking for it. They have posted in the Strategy Forum, asking for feed back. They seem to monitor all of these forums. Is it perfect? Hell no! It could be much better. Keep telling them how.

2: Do the critics really think they are helping? Lib? Yin? Do you think that Firaxis and Infogrammes are being encouraged by your contributions to these forums lately? Really? Would you keep going and possibly throw good money after bad if your feedback is what you saw day in and day out? I know I wouldn't.

Is it that you want to see this title fail? Well let me tell you what will happen if this title fails. There never will be a civ 4. Unless some monumentally stupid person with a lot of money to spare decides to throw it all away. CTP2, Civ3. In capitalism its strike 2, You're Out! If you're lucky.

Civ3 lives and flourishes, thanks in part to the collective input of the community, or Civ dies. Period. Unless of course they can sell enough copies in FutureShop/BestBuy/YourAnIdiotBuyThis to be able to ignore us. But then, it wouldn't really be worthy of civ after all, would it?

Go ahead, flame away. I'm only telling the truth. It will not change, no matter how much you want it to.

Salve

[Libertarian]

Come on Lib, even you can figure out how to move units in a stack one after the other without being distracted by other stacks (hint; right click, start with the bottom unit on the list).

Thanks for the hint. Here's one for you. IT DOESN"T WORK.

Like most everything else about the game, it's buggy. It works sometimes, but fails to work sometimes. In relying on the "feature" that you recommend, I have sent workers on their way to irrelevant mountains when I thought I was sending a transport to a city, and other such eratic and random craziness.

Once a feature has bludgeoned me enough times, I stop relying on it.

Do the critics really think they are helping? Lib? Yin? Do you think that Firaxis and Infogrammes are being encouraged by your contributions to these forums lately? Really? Would you keep going and possibly throw good money after bad if your feedback is what you saw day in and day out? I know I wouldn't.

All I have asked of Firaxis is forthrightness, honesty, and appreciation of the community.

I have expressed appreciation when they have admitted their mistakes (as they did with play testing). I have thanked them when they have answered my questions (as they did — finally — with group movement). I have given credit where credit is due (as when I praised Soren for what I consider to be a good AI).

Now, you have chosen to put me into a pigeon hole, and that's your business. But not everything in life is black and white.

[notyoueither]

Well, hello Lib.

Originally posted by Libertarian


Thanks for the hint. Here's one for you. IT DOESN"T WORK.

Like most everything else about the game, it's buggy. It works sometimes, but fails to work sometimes. In relying on the "feature" that you recommend, I have sent workers on their way to irrelevant mountains when I thought I was sending a transport to a city, and other such eratic and random craziness.

Once a feature has bludgeoned me enough times, I stop relying on it.

Come on Lib, you want us to believe you cannot tell the difference between an animated worker and a transport? Weren't you paying any attention? I watch what I'm doing and switch back to the area that I want to focus on, maybe that's one reason why I'm not so disillusioned as you. Yes, it can be disorientating, and I hope that Firaxis improves it, but I do not see it as the bother that you seem to.

All I have asked of Firaxis is forthrightness, honesty, and appreciation of the community.

I have expressed appreciation when they have admitted their mistakes (as they did with play testing). I have thanked them when they have answered my questions (as they did — finally — with group movement). I have given credit where credit is due (as when I praised Soren for what I consider to be a good AI).

Now, you have chosen to put me into a pigeon hole, and that's your business. But not everything in life is black and white.

No, Lib. You have made yourself Black and White. You have admitted no Grey.

First you posted pics of the student in Beijing to justify Spearmen vs tanks when you were a fan. That was ridiculous IMHO, since it had nothing to do with combat.

Now you can admit no good things.

Snobs > Great Thinkers???? Care to explain that?

Salve

[Libertarian]

Come on Lib, you want us to believe you cannot tell the difference between an animated worker and a transport? Weren't you paying any attention? I watch what I'm doing and switch back to the area that I want to focus on, maybe that's one reason why I'm not so disillusioned as you. Yes, it can be disorientating, and I hope that Firaxis improves it, but I do not see it as the bother that you seem to.

So, because the tedium which you've described doesn't bother you, it shouldn't bother anyone? How myopic.

No, Lib. You have made yourself Black and White. You have admitted no Grey.

First you posted pics of the student in Beijing to justify Spearmen vs tanks when you were a fan. That was ridiculous IMHO, since it had nothing to do with combat.

Now you can admit no good things.

Proof that you don't know what you're talking about. I posted that image a couple of days ago.

As I said, I give credit where credit is due.

Snobs > Great Thinkers???? Care to explain that?

I already did, but I'm not surprised that it shot over your head.

[Special_Olympic]

Re: But Seriously

I'm happy to pay for a beta of a game I love. Hey, I've bought 2 copies so far (actually got a would be pirate to buy one from me). Only Firaxis has to deal with the realities of payrolls and Infogrammes.

Well then you're happy. You paid for two betas. Yay.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Libertarian


So, because the tedium which you've described doesn't bother you, it shouldn't bother anyone? How myopic.



Proof that you don't know what you're talking about. I posted that image a couple of days ago.

As I said, I give credit where credit is due.



I already did, but I'm not surprised that it shot over your head.

Well Lib, time to call a spade a spade. Sorry, sorrta (not really).

1. You can't tell that you're moving a transport instead of a worker? Well, let me recommend Fisher Price Freddy Fish. It may be more your speed in a strategy game...

2. Snobs > Great Thinkers. You explained nothing. You offered a laughably servile explanation to hostile readers about how they should accept a former fan-boy as a critic. I haven't seen more *ss k*ssed in a very long time. You clearly need approval from someone, anyone. These are things that should be addressed outside the confines of an on-line forum. Preferably with a qualified professional.

None Slave

[notyoueither]

Re: Re: But Seriously

Originally posted by Special_Olympic



Well then you're happy. You paid for two betas. Yay.

No. Read what I said. Someone bought one from me. Can you follow the bouncing ball?

You aren't a programmer are you? If you were, you wouldn't have chirped in with your 2/10000ths cents worth. A programmer might appreciate a pirate paying for code.

Salve

[Libertarian]

You can't tell that you're moving a transport instead of a worker?

I never said that I couldn't tell. That was a head-in-the-ass assumption made by, well, you. The few times that the randomness that you're defending happened, I had been stupid enough to trust the interface.

Then I woke up.

Great Thinkers. You explained nothing.

I explained that I was wrong when I called them snobs. If the explanation doesn't suit you, who cares? But you've no need to lie about it.

By the way, you're doing a great job in this thread pulling together the critics and the sycophants. Way to go.

[Adagio]

Hey notyoueither!

I have only one thing to say to you: You're damn right. There should be more people like you on this forum.

And for the whiners: It was infogrames that told when it should be released so don't blame it on Firaxis, and at least patches are being made. We have seen one patch by now, and what did it contain? A lots of fixes, not just 2 or 3 like other game companies, and I guess we can expect more patches to come. So if you need to blame somebody blame infogrames...

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Libertarian


I never said that I couldn't tell. That was a head-in-the-ass assumption made by, well, you. The few times that the randomness that you're defending happened, I had been stupid enough to trust the interface.

Then I woke up.



I explained that I was wrong when I called them snobs. If the explanation doesn't suit you, who cares? But you've no need to lie about it.

By the way, you're doing a great job in this thread pulling together the critics and the sycophants. Way to go.

Hmmm. Move the transport to the middle of the Himalayas. Yeah, I can see how that could happen to anybody... NOT. Freddie Fish awaits. Less frustration. Whattya say?

Come on Lib. You woke up when you decided to get all p*ssed at a response addressed directly at you from a Firaxis staffer that you found some offence in. I am still bewildered by how offence was taken, but maybe that's just me.

And no, I am not lying about anything. You switched from calling down the critics to k*ssing their *ss overnight. Just after that Firaxian response. How about that!

As far as pulling together the denizens of Apolyton is concerned, that would be a good thing. If you are part of it, great, but I doubt it. Bruised egos such as yours seldom come around.

As for what other effects this thread may have, maybe none. Maybe some. Who knows.

The truth remains. Civ3 succeeds or civ is dead. No one outside of the civ community is going to discount CTP2. We're all part of the same part and parcel as far as markets go.

Salve

[Peter Triggs]

I have heard how CTP2 bankrupted its designers and/or some others involved in that project. They dumped a lot of effort (money!) on the initial release. Man, we had techs all the way till 2200, woohoo. Sales did not go well. They did not have the resources to follow-up. They shot the roll. It wasn't good enough (for us). They folded.

Not really. CTP2 was developed and published by Activision. The company posted net revenues of $572 million for the fiscal year ending Mar 31/2000 and $620 million for the fiscal year ending Mar 31/2001. I believe their current big seller is 'Return to Castle Wolfenstein'.

[Libertarian]

It is a great ontological fortune for me that you are neither my judge, my jury, nor my executioner, although you play them on a message board.

Your snide hint about how to affect sensible movement order has been shown to be worthless.

Your accusation that I posted a picture of Tiannanmen when I was a fanboy like you has been proven false.

Your assertion that I did not explain changing my mind about people here has been exposed as a lie.

Yet you ramble on.

What was that you said about ego, oh blameless one?

This thread is nothing but the flame-bait of a troll. You clearly have no intention of mitigating the concerns of critics. Your bellicose and heavy-handed judgmentalism belies your claim of a high moral ground.

Physician, heal thyself.

[notyoueither]

Lib. Peace, OK.

I understand you are p*ssed. I cannot understand why, really. I could pretend, but it would be fake. Let me just acknowledge that you are p*ssed, and that how you feel cannot be wrong. It's a feeling after-all. Nothing objective.

You alluded to it earlier. Bring it together. I maybe missed the opportunity. Juussssttt ssoooooo haarrrrd ttttooo buuurrrryyy thhheeee haaaatchettt. Especially with someone who expresses themselves as well as you do.

I don't expect you to be a booster, but it would be nice if someone who can express himself as you can would begin to contribute to civ again, rather than drag it down (my feelings, can't be wrong, eh).

Salve

[moomin]

Re: But Seriously

Originally posted by notyoueither

So you don't like moving unit after unit after unit. So tell me, what was so great about civ or civ2? I assume that anyone who comments on this thread will have played and loved civ or civ2. So why the different standard re unit movement mechanics in civ3? I'm curious.

The difference, of course, is that while it was, and is, perfectly feasible to conquer the world with two or three howitzers in Civ2, you need dozens of units to take a single city in the Civ3 end-game. Moving sixty units around every turn is _slightly_ more work than moving two.

Add to that that this inflation adds noting in itself (you use ten attackers as you would use one attacker of ten-fold strength) and you start really hurting for the lack of stack movement.

Finally, Civ2 is a five year old game. It's lack of stacked movement wasn't all that hot back then and it's entirely inexplicable now. The end game tedium is way worse than it ever was in Civ2.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Peter Triggs


Not really. CTP2 was developed and published by Activision. The company posted net revenues of $572 million for the fiscal year ending Mar 31/2000 and $620 million for the fiscal year ending Mar 31/2001. I believe their current big seller is 'Return to Castle Wolfenstein'.

I could be wrong. I am going on hearsay, but I am under the impression that CTP2 does not have a good rep in the publishing community as a money maker. I heard that someone really hurt over it. Did Activision develop it? Can't find any other mentions on the materials I have at hand (the retail box).

Can someone correct me?

Salve