Announcement

**notyoueither** · January 6, 2002, 09:55

moominparatrooper

I usually use 8 to 12 ModernArmour. Takes most cities, at least until Vel's patch with no name. Then, who knows?

Yes, I agree. The game really needs stacked or grouped movement (they aren't necessarily the same thing).

As for the end game tedium... Have you tried disabling Diplomacy and Space Victory? DON'T.

But, how can it be made better? Isn't that the point?

Salve

**Libertarian** · January 6, 2002, 10:04

But, how can it be made better? Isn't that the point?

I'll attempt to communicate with you here without receiving condescension and taunts in return. We'll see how it goes...

How it can be made better has been enumerated to a fare-thee-well in manifold threads over the course of several weeks. What is missing is any but the most coy acknowledgment from the developers of the game whether they agree that the suggestions made would be improvements or whether they have any intention of implementing them. There has been no expression of gratitude for suggestions, no indication of what ideas they like, and no acknowledgment of their intentions about anything at all.

Suggestions for interface improvements have been given in excruciating detail. You need only harvest them from the many threads dating back to the game's release.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you've just got here and that you missed all of it. Go search. See for yourself.

**notyoueither** · January 6, 2002, 10:22

OK Lib, benefit of the doubt, that is my watch word.

I know it p*sses you off, but Firaxis obviously has a policy of no comment. So long as they develop civ and you tune in, you are going to be p*ssed. Irresistible force, meet immovable object.

I don't know what else to say. I don't know what anyone outside of Firaxis could ever say. And they ain't talkin by policy.

No offence here, but why beat your head into the wall?

I am choosing to proceed along the lines that they are continuing to develop the game. Unless I want ulcers I think that is the only way to go.

I admit, I am trusting that they will tell us when they are done, no more. At that point I can decide if I want to continue playing and helping to develop the game via mods or move on. That's my role. I can control that. I can live with it.

If I don't like the way Firaxis does things, or how the game is progressing, then I can cut out earlier. What can be simpler.

All of us have these options. Although, I have to admit, cutting civ loose and saying we'll go our separate ways, that may be painful. Hmmmm. Maybe I can appreciate the conundrum you are faced with after all.

Salve

**Libertarian** · January 6, 2002, 10:35

I did exactly what you say you're going to do.

If you search for my first thread that asked Firaxis to consider improvements, you'll see there that I explained that I had waited until after the release of the patch. I supported them until that time with quite some fervor, giving them exactly the benefit of the doubt that we are discussing here.

I don't have to be slapped too hard to know that I'm not dreaming. If they will not acknowledge the sincere suggestions of even their most vociferous fans, how can they be trusted for anything else?

I have no idea what they're working on right now. No one does, thanks to the remarkably dense no-comment policy. But one thing they certainly are NOT working on is customer relations.

They are leaving that task to people like you.

**notyoueither** · January 6, 2002, 10:50

Touche.

Businesses rely on the good will and fervour of their happy customers, like me.

Obviously, they have lost your good will somewhere along the way. They did something that set you against them.

As you have stated, that point was when you could no longer wait for the morsels of info that they give out. OK. That's fine.

But then why stick around? Honestly?

**Peter Triggs** · January 6, 2002, 11:11

CTP2 definitely wasn't a big money maker and Activision may have even lost some on the deal. But with the kind of turnover they've got they can afford to develop the odd bomb: that's just part of the risks involved in being a publisher.

As far as Civ3 is concerned, I think you're right that people should be keeping their eye on it's current sales. If it, too, were to bomb then we might well be seeing the end of Civilisation as we know it. Which reminds me:

Markos, the NPD sales figures for the week before Christmas (Dec 16-22) are out. Civ3 came in at #8.

**Venger** · January 6, 2002, 12:56

Re: Re: But Seriously

Originally posted by moominparatrooper
The difference, of course, is that while it was, and is, perfectly feasible to conquer the world with two or three howitzers in Civ2,

That's overselling it a bit methinks. If you are playing on Deity, 2 howitzers doesn't even take one city - the AI has 5 or 6 alpine or mech inf in every city, along with stealth bombers that he WILL use!

Howitzer blitzes kinda sucked but it didn't happen like that. Hell, even IF you could take a city with two howitzers, all the partisans created after you took it would take two howitzers 3 turns to clear!!!

you need dozens of units to take a single city in the Civ3 end-game. Moving sixty units around every turn is _slightly_ more work than moving two.

Exactly, but the REAL stupid part is that in Civ3, you can take a city with 4 tanks, but in order to not have it "culturally revolt", which in itself is one of the faggiest concepts I've ever heard for a historical strategy game, I have to move 20 tanks in behind it. Every city. Unless you want to be a genocidal freak and raze the city.

Finally, Civ2 is a five year old game. It's lack of stacked movement wasn't all that hot back then and it's entirely inexplicable now. The end game tedium is way worse than it ever was in Civ2.

Preach on brother.

Venger

**ChrisShaffer** · January 6, 2002, 13:09

Re: Re: Re: But Seriously

Originally posted by Venger
Exactly, but the REAL stupid part is that in Civ3, you can take a city with 4 tanks, but in order to not have it "culturally revolt", which in itself is one of the faggiest concepts I've ever heard for a historical strategy game, I have to move 20 tanks in behind it. Every city. Unless you want to be a genocidal freak and raze the city.

Venger, please stop inflicting your homophobia on us. It doesn't help your arguments at all.

**ACooper** · January 6, 2002, 13:31

Originally posted by Libertarian
I did exactly what you say you're going to do.

If you search for my first thread that asked Firaxis to consider improvements, you'll see there that I explained that I had waited until after the release of the patch. I supported them until that time with quite some fervor, giving them exactly the benefit of the doubt that we are discussing here.

I don't have to be slapped too hard to know that I'm not dreaming. If they will not acknowledge the sincere suggestions of even their most vociferous fans, how can they be trusted for anything else?

I have no idea what they're working on right now. No one does, thanks to the remarkably dense no-comment policy. But one thing they certainly are NOT working on is customer relations.

They are leaving that task to people like you.

That's why you are pissed? Because they didn't answer you personally or give you some personal credit for you suggestions that you posted on a web site that is not connected to Firaxis or Infogames? Guess what? They don't have to. This (Apolyton) is not a "customer service site". The answers we get here are on people's free time.

I think the purpose of this is to get people to work together, but all you do is whine and put up stupid incomprehensible illogical arguments that prove nothing.

I still don't understand the how you could mistake a transport for a settler.

**ACooper** · January 6, 2002, 13:34

I think this thread was excellent until hijacked.

**Venger** · January 6, 2002, 13:47

Re: Re: Re: Re: But Seriously

Originally posted by ChrisShaffer

Venger, please stop inflicting your homophobia on us. It doesn't help your arguments at all.

Homophobia is such a misnomer. I have no "irrational" fear or dislike for homosexuals. In fact, I game twice a month with a guy who is gay as the day is long. Best friend in high school was queer as a three dollar bill too. However, having the same equipment, I understand the RIGHT way to use it. I don't like them or dislike them because of their sexuality - because I don't deal with them on that level.

However, if you want to get into it, go for it. There isn't a gay leg to stand on. You can do whatever floats your boat, rub your pathetic little pecker up against your honey, or the neighbors dog, or a knothole in the fence. Doesn't matter to me. But don't try and sell me on "sex is sex" and some type of normal equivalency between gay and straight sex.

You may not like the word, but it fits it to a tee...

Venger

**Willem** · January 6, 2002, 14:08

Re: But Seriously

Originally posted by notyoueither
But seriously, folks...

I do not expect any company to risk suicide on the civ public after that. I do not expect it to be finished. In fact I would favour an interactive design process between the programmers and the dedicated fans. I'm happy to pay for a beta of a game I love. Hey, I've bought 2 copies so far (actually got a would be pirate to buy one from me). Only Firaxis has to deal with the realities of payrolls and Infogrammes. They can't say beta. It is kind of obvious, at least to me, that Firaxis was not in control of the time-table. Let's see, October release, November, CHRISTMAS. OK October or nothin.

Salve

I agree with you. Judging from the several posts I've seen by Firaxis employees, they are taking an active interest in trying to make this a better product for everyone. I'm also a Command & Conquer fan, but I don't recall ever seeing an interview by a Westwood designer on one of their forums. Civ 3 is a very complex game, and they have chosen a new direction in which to take it. Mistakes are bound to happen, especially as you pointed out that it was rushed in order to meet the Christmas deadline.

And changes take time to implement. Programming of any kind can be a slow, tedious process of testing and retesting, as anyone who has had the slighest experience with it should know. Unless of course some people would prefer a patch that addresses their own issues, but makes other areas unplayable. Judging from my attempts to customize my own game through the editor, one slight change in an area can have serious repurcussions in others, to the point where the game simply won't work any longer.

So I would suggest that people should show a bit more patience with Firaxis, and give them some credit for making the effort to listen to the fans, and trying to make changes. I think it's to their credit that they came out a patch so quickly after the game was released, and I'm sure that I won't have to wait very long before the next one comes out.

**Libertarian** · January 6, 2002, 16:33

NYE:

But then why stick around? Honestly?

As I've said many times, hope springs eternal.

-----

SRA:

That's why you are pissed? Because they didn't answer you personally or give you some personal credit for you suggestions that you posted on a web site that is not connected to Firaxis or Infogames?

No. I'm not pissed at all. That's your own infantile inference.

Guess what? They don't have to. This (Apolyton) is not a "customer service site". The answers we get here are on people's free time.

Yeah. That would explain the thread opened by Jeff Morris.

I think the purpose of this is to get people to work together, but all you do is whine and put up stupid incomprehensible illogical arguments that prove nothing.

Tu quoque.

I still don't understand the how you could mistake a transport for a settler.

I didn't, oh blind one. The interface did.

I think this thread was excellent until hijacked.

Amen. So why don't you go away?

**Special_Olympic** · January 6, 2002, 16:57

Re: Re: Re: But Seriously

Originally posted by notyoueither

No. Read what I said. Someone bought one from me. Can you follow the bouncing ball?

You aren't a programmer are you? If you were, you wouldn't have chirped in with your 2/10000ths cents worth. A programmer might appreciate a pirate paying for code.

Salve

Yes I am a programmer, but maybe I didn't appreciate your comment becasue it was rather childish and really contains no logic?

If you like paying for betas that's great... good for you.

**ACooper** · January 6, 2002, 17:40

Lib,

It's not you are saying that I disagree with. It's the way you say it. It's your continuous need to be a loud mouth whiner. Your suggestions are valuable and worthwhile but get over yourself and realize that you are not the only person who has ideas to make the game better and the guys at Firaxis and InfoGames have had a lot of input and can't reply to everyone personally.

The game is not that bad and is playable as is. Sure there are lots of improvements to be made and the programmers have demonstrated that they are working on some of the things even if they can't say anything specific. All of this takes time and don't forget that we have had 3 major holidays since the game was released (in the US anyway).

I'm sure your message has been heard, now move on.

Thank you and now back to your regular programming.........

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