Has the scenario community given up on Civ3?

[Special_Olympic]

Originally posted by Venger
I remember battling with Lib a bit here, but I'll grant him a reprieve. Hell, I'll grant anyone a reprieve who has finally seen the light.

Methinks he was simply blinded by his expectations and finally realized what a tedious poorly implemented cluster yank Civ3 turned out to be... that and he didn't like the utter lack of responsiveness from Firaxis about the game.

Venger

In some cases it takes some playing time to really appreciate the giant flaws in the gameplay. I noticed the game was tedious right away, but it took about three weeks to just get really sick and disgusted with it.

I'm still hoping something will happen, like a good mod...

[techumseh]

Originally posted by MarkG
no "official response" was given except from jeff morris and dan magaha saying in all sorts of variations and occasions(forums, chat) that the intention of firaxis to improve mod and scenario capabilties

but of course no official response was given...

What a load of BS, Markos. And you know it! We prepared a detailed list of concerns/requests in our letter over at Scenario League, then it was posted at the top on this forum for several weeks with NO response. Then I caught up to Dan Magaha posting on another forum and asked why they weren't responding. He claimed he didn't know one was expected. It was then suggested that the letter be emailed directly to Firaxis in the hopes of a response, something you agreed to undertake on our behalf. Still no answer. On a couple of occasions subsequently, you indicated that you were in touch with someone and hoped a response might be sent. Still nothing.

To imply that Firaxis has unofficially responded to a letter signed by over 40 members of the scenario community is clearly misleading. There were a number of specific requests made in the letter, none of which were included in the patch OR were responded to in any way by Firaxis. Vague assurances that they want to "improve mod and scenario capabilties", made on other threads, just don't cut it. Unfortunately, I have to conclude that this is more than the bad PR that Firaxis is now famous for. I just don't think that the game is designed to include scenarios in any real way, and they won't admit it. I'm much more pessimistic than Harlan, I guess. So save your cheerleading for another cause, Markos. This one is lost.

[techumseh]

In case anyone wants to review the letter or the history, here's the thread: http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...threadid=32613

[CapTVK]

I find it odd that they didn't even acknowledge the letter. It was an official polite request by the scenario community. It was listed on top of the forum for all to see. MarkG 'apparently' received a confirmation from Firaxis/Infogrames. Two months have passed, plenty of time to come with a diplomatic and vague answer, but nothing....


Makes you wonder if they actually read it at all....



And Yin26 was right, Firaxis DOES have poor PR.

And seen how the problems and complaints (justified or not) (The acronyms SM were a nice gimmick though ) were handled with SMAC. It's clear that they didn't learn from past mistakes, such pity.

[Admiral PJ]

I think Civ3 will be great for Scenarios, at the moment you can do a lot of new stuff over Civ TOT.

People right now are still playing civ3 and getting to know how it works.. when people want to try new games and scenarios getting bored of civ3 they'll start making scenarios.

I've attempted a full scenario , and the editor makes things much better.

Its great you can have multiple buildings that do the same thing, or mixing of allowing happiness and more production , lots of great abilities like a port that allows fast ship repairing and increased production (helps ship building etc)

the trade resource system can be edited well , even allowing you to need stone resources before building walls for example.

Email me at : peter@artpac.demon.co.uk if you want to work with
me to make some cool Civ3 scenarios..

[CapTVK]

Originally posted by Admiral PJ
I think Civ3 will be great for Scenarios, at the moment you can do a lot of new stuff over Civ TOT.

People right now are still playing civ3 and getting to know how it works.. when people want to try new games and scenarios getting bored of civ3 they'll start making scenarios.

I've attempted a full scenario , and the editor makes things much better.

Its great you can have multiple buildings that do the same thing, or mixing of allowing happiness and more production , lots of great abilities like a port that allows fast ship repairing and increased production (helps ship building etc)

the trade resource system can be edited well , even allowing you to need stone resources before building walls for example.

Email me at : peter@artpac.demon.co.uk if you want to work with
me to make some cool Civ3 scenarios..

Erhmmm Admiral PJ, did you actually play Civ2 scenarios? I mean real ones like Captain Nemo's Red Front by any chance? A scenario like RF is currently impossible in Civ3.

I'm asking this because you're experience seems to be solely based on Civ3. While I think it's excellent you plan to create scenarios for Civ3 it might be a good thing to check out the classic and learn from the masters.

[MarkG]

Originally posted by techumseh
So save your cheerleading for another cause, Markos. This one is lost.

i dont know if you have realized this(after being explained several times by firaxians participating in our forums and chats) but Firaxis, as a company, has taken a certain (official) stance towards making specific promises or any kind of predictions of what they will do with civ3 in the future. so if you expected a "from the stuff you suggested, we will do #1, #4 and #6 in the next 5 weeks" response in your thread, you're out of luck.

on the general issue of improving customization abilities there HAS been a response, repeated many times. if you dont like the response that's a different issue


now if you consider the above post as "cheerleading", i'm terribly sorry for having a different opinion that you...

[Grrr]

If one remembers that long list of scenario wants submitted by DAN MAGAHA, they will probably remember my explicit listing of requirements for a WWII scenario. The editors are too tedious and crappy, and one thought firaxis would have learnt where craptivision failed, ie scenario editing. I may oneday make that scenario, but for the time being, I challenge you EXPERTS to build a CIV2 scenario to run in CIV3, including all of the civ2 editing tools. This will probably not be Sid's idea of good bussiness, but then we can play Civ2 in the Civ3 engine.
Well get on with it.

[Grumbold]

Firaxis staff can hardly comment officially (barring some vague aspirations to improve modmaking) if any and all future development on the product has to be agreed by Infogrames. If Civ 3 has shipped enough units to make Infogrames desire an expansion pack then hopefully Firaxis and the fansites will persuade them to include goodies for the modmakers and multiplayers alongside the sort of glossy stuff like new civs, techs, units and wonders that will make it marketable.

[Grrr]

Originally posted by Grumbold
Firaxis staff can hardly comment officially (barring some vague aspirations to improve modmaking) if any and all future development on the product has to be agreed by Infogrames. If Civ 3 has shipped enough units to make Infogrames desire an expansion pack then hopefully Firaxis and the fansites will persuade them to include goodies for the modmakers and multiplayers alongside the sort of glossy stuff like new civs, techs, units and wonders that will make it marketable.

This depends:
If, Firaxis promised to include multiplayer and editor tools on the original CDROM with Infogrammes, then Officially, unless a contract was signed annulling such included but as of now unpublished particulars of the original game sectors, then Firaxis has right to complete and honour it's original game designs.
Thus if Infogrammes has not signed a contract for the annulment of the further devolpment and distribution of previously designed game sectors, Firaxis may distribute them at will, claiming they make part of the original game.
As far as I know, the original Beta version had the capability to multiplay at a horrendous standard, and thus it was part of the original game, and Firaxis may redevelop "patch" this game sector.

[Grumbold]

That is certainly a valid view. Reading the limited amount of material that has leaked out since release it seems to me to have been an Infogrames/Firaxis decision to meet the original deadline that mandated the removal of certain incomplete features. So what was published was what was agreed.

Quite frankly I see Firaxis as being run very solidly as a business. We're not going to get any "unauthorised" patches slipped out without prior approval from Infogrames because Firaxis want to maximise the profits from the product and maintain a good relationship with a publisher who they may be asking to advance them up to a couple of million dollars for another product in the future. Likewise Infogrames aren't going to pay Firaxis to develop any additional Civ 3 material unless their beancounters reckon it will ship enough units to be worth it. On that basis, keeping the fans happy has to be done on a mostly mercenary basis. Friendly employees can of course drop in and be helpful, just as long as they don't make any unfulfillable promises for the future....

[Grrr]

As usual, the consumers interests are matched up against the investors interest. Has our GLOBALIST society ever heard of something other than GREED. While you are probably right Grumbold, I thought that the lack of service to consumers was part of the reason why Sid and the team left Microprose.

I'll keep hoping for free updates, even though this is wishful thinking.

(Edited to fix typo in Grumbold's name)

[s3d]

well, we wouldnt have Civ3 without our GLOBALIST society

[Libertarian]

Originally posted by Venger
I remember battling with Lib a bit here, but I'll grant him a reprieve. Hell, I'll grant anyone a reprieve who has finally seen the light.

Methinks he was simply blinded by his expectations and finally realized what a tedious poorly implemented cluster yank Civ3 turned out to be... that and he didn't like the utter lack of responsiveness from Firaxis about the game.

Venger

You're exactly right. What happened is that I was wrong. I'm very proud of the public record of my enlightenment. As I told Yin, I've always admired a man who, when faced with compelling evidence that runs contrary to his own notions, changes his mind.

I changed my mind.

I was merciless in my attacks against both Apolyton and the critics of Firaxis. I therefore deserve (and ask for) no mercy now.

The facts speak for themselves. What I had discerned as snobs here were in fact great thinkers. That's why I've become Prince here and am still Warlord there.

And what I had defended about Firaxis before, I now know to be nothing more than vapor.

So yes, I've seen the light. All that was required was that I open my eyes.

I recommend it to everyone.

[Comrade Tribune]

Originally posted by Grrr
While you are probably right Grumbold, I thought that the lack of service to consumers was part of the reason why Sid and the team left Microprose.

But Microprose was, on average, wayyyyy more consumer-friendly than Firaxis.