Top 10 Fun-Killers in Civ3

[Barnacle Bill]

On the border thing, the simplest solution would be to make it impossible for any Civ (human or AI) to order any ground unit into a tile within the borders of another Civ unless a state of war or a right of passage treaty exists. If you want to attack, declare war then move across the border. The same effect really is if when you try to move across the border you get the same pop-up as when you order an attack now, and confirming the order has the effect of creating a state of war. Either way, no more annoying border violations and useless diplomacy to demand that they stop.

This should not apply to ships and air missions, though. Violations of air space and/or territorial waters in real life are not the same thing as border violations by division-sized or larger ground forces. Plus, territorial waters in real life would be less than 1 Civ3 tile wide - even on a 256-wide Civ3 map each tile is about 156 km which is way more that the 12 miles from which you can exclude foreign naval forces under international law. At most, your borders should extend to coastal water tiles adjacent to land tiles within your borders, but probably borders for the purpose of excluding foriegn units (as opposed to economic use by city laborers) should just stop at the beach.

On related topics, right of passage should not automatically be mutual - if you want right of passage without granting it in return it should cost extra but you should be able to negociate for it. Similarly, you should be able to negociate the ability to use ports & air bases (or that should be included in right of passage by default). Finally, you should be able to ask/demand/bribe a civ to break agreements or make peace with a third civ.

[sophist]

Re: Top 10 Fun-Killers in Civ3

Originally posted by Libertarian

8. Civilopedia Inaccesible in Critical Places

I've no idea, when I'm trading, whether I'm trading value for value because I can't get to the documentation without abandoning the negotiation.

If you hit Esc, it'll pop you out of the trading screen and you can then access the civilopedia. If you then open a diplomatic session, it'll pick up where you left off. Admittedly, having it "in flow" would be preferable, as this doesn't address diplomacy when it's not your turn.

Originally posted by Libertarian

And when deciding whether this is the city that should have X Wonder, I have to close the city screen to find out whether this is the Wonder that does Y.

Chasing down information that ought to be readily available is not my idea of fun.

Yes, there's a definite need for civilopedia access from within the build menu.

Originally posted by Libertarian

6. Empty Technologies

I really don't understand the point of this. If it's going to take 12 turns to get to something, why not just make the something take 12 turns?

There is no reward feedback whatsoever in getting a stepping-stone technology. It's just a game nuisance. And the problem is that, in Civ3, there are so many of them.

Well, it does give you something to trade. After all, you might be willing to sell Printing Press but not Democracy. I would say the solution is making the tech give you something (like, say, a printing press?) rather than eliminating it.

Originally posted by Libertarian

Having to navigate all around a map with extremely limited zoom and clutzy scrolling mechanisms, while trying to maintain a train of thought in a theater of battle, or in an area where you're clearing jungle, is impossible.

I would make the inability to have more than two levels of zoom #11. With a coda for the complete absence of zoom in the editor.

Originally posted by Knockout

I have a wonderful idea: WHY DON'T YOU STOP PLAYING CIV 3 AND GO PLAY SOMETHING ELSE???

I mean no disrespect, but it's kinda funny to read posts like this... and I bet you're gonna play another game first thing as soon as you get some free time! I personaly like Civ 3 and some of the things you mentioned annoy me to, but overall, it's not that bad...

Because we gave $50 of our money for a game that we'd want to play.

Originally posted by Ralf

And STILL you keep on playing it, and STILL you keep on posting topics here that complain & whine, instead of suggesting changes & tweaks to the game in a more constructive manner.

What's a constructive manner? He said what's wrong, with either implicit or explicit suggestions of how to fix it.

Originally posted by Ralf

Libetarian - have you any idea how many games that I have bought over the years, more or less on inpulse - just to realise that It wasnt cut exactly like I wanted it?

I have played those games for an hour or so - then put it on some dust-collecting shelve. Or take it for a second-hand trade-in, for another game in exchange.

Its no big deal, so get over it.

Example: a guy's kid was crying in a movie a few months back (R-rated, too). After the movie I stuck my nose in and said he shouldn't bring his kid to movies where he might disturb people. The guy said I could get my money back from the theater manager. That's not the answer. I don't want my money back from the theater. I don't want my money back at all. I paid to watch a movie without disturbance, and I should get that. Similarly, I paid for a Civ3 without the above flaws. Would I have bought it had I known that these issues existed? Possibly. Even if I could return it, would that be a satisfactory solution? Nope. I don't want my money back. I don't even want my time back. What I want is the game that I should have been given. If I get it 5 months later, well, that's better than not at all. Firaxis will gain or lose future customers based on this, so it's not like they don't have some motivation.

[Blaupanzer]

What's missing is that sense of awe from the earlier editions. Wonder movies, end game shows, music signalling death of a civ all contributed to the sense of amazement which the game tried to sustain. This one has details (rulers' faces, animated units) but lack that strategic almost God-like grandeur.

Libertarian, you have said on several threads that you don't play anymore, but have a "right to complain. No reason to now complain that the designers and developers have tuned you out -- you told them to. Obviously, I agree with some of your list. I'm not entirely convinced that the editor should be adjusted to fix all of these. Some are fundamental (10, 9, and 8, especially).

[Kolyana]

The guy said I could get my money back from the theater manager.

How did this one end up? Did you continue to chew him out until his kid burst into tears and he threw his wallet at you in an attempt to fend off the hostilities?

[Libertarian]

Blaupanzer,

I've not said in any thread that I don't play anymore.

What I've said is that I find play to be boring, and that I've had to modify my playing style to avoid carpal tunnel, and that I'm going to try some things with the editor to see whether I can make workers less relevant.

Then — if that fails, and if Firaxis continues to refuse to state its intentions with respect to game boredom — then I'll stop playing.

It's like Nato said above, this is a hard game to walk away from. It feels like an old friend. One that's dying. It's sad.

I understand Ming's concern about sales dropping because it is inevitable that word will get out about the truth — especially on the Internet.

So in my opinion, what Firaxis faces is a decision of conscience. Does it intend to leave the game like this or not? And does it intend to reward us (its play testers) with information about where exactly they are headed with all this? Or does it just decide to take the money and run?

We'll see.

[Ming]

Originally posted by Libertarian
So in my opinion, what Firaxis faces is a decision of conscience. Does it intend to leave the game like this or not? And does it intend to reward us (its play testers) with information about where exactly they are headed with all this? Or does it just decide to take the money and run?

We'll see.

RIGHT ON TARGET!!!!!!!!!
(But, IMHO, they don't know where they are going to take this yet, so they really can't say anything more than they have)

There are few possible paths they can take...

First... the game continues to sell and meets their revenue goals.

Choice between, using the profits to continue working on the game to make it even better and to keep those sales going, or laughing all the way to the bank... stop throwing resources at it, and hope a lot more money comes in before realization hits the gaming community.

Second... game sales are way below expectations.

Choices between, every cent they spend on fixing the game is just throwing bad money after bad... and just pull a CTP II...
or... Try to fix as much as they can to maintain their reputation and pray that it can actually bring in more sales of the game.

So yes... it's a combination of business factors and of conscience.

One can only hope that it works out for us... the buyers of the game.

[Libertarian]

You're a well-tempered person, Ming. A facilitator. I'm glad you participate. I realize that my rhetoric goes over the top sometimes. I wish I had your temperament.

[Ming]

Originally posted by Libertarian
You're a well-tempered person, Ming. A facilitator. I'm glad you participate. I realize that my rhetoric goes over the top sometimes. I wish I had your temperament.

If you had worked in the business community for over 25 years, you would be well-tempered too... or you would have had a heart attack or gone crazy

And while I appreciate the comment, you have probably missed the times I haven't been well-tempered in my duties on this site
But, yeah... most of the time I am. And like you, sometimes I get VERY FRUSTRATED.

I've been a firm supporter of Civ Series since the FIRST TIME I played Civ. I have given my heart and my time to the Civ Community. Besides my duties here, I helped to put together the section of cheats for Yins original list to Firaxis... and I will still answer newbee questions in the Civ II section... I love Civ... I still play Civ II MP... So needless to say... yeah, I have an attachment to Civ... so again, I'm as frustrated as many about the current status of Civ III.

[Kolyana]

Group hug?

[Ming]

Originally posted by Kolyana
Group hug?

Nah.... We will all continue to have disagreements. However, I think most of us can agree that this list is a great start, even if you don't agree with all ten of them.

[Whoha]

Pretty sure they know about this, there are a few threads that are bug lists, and they'll probably address it all. I dont see the worker tedium problem though, if its just pollution, ive found that toning it down saves alot on pointless worker action

[Jodo Kast]

DYING FRIEND

I think that's hilarious: comparing Civ3 to a dying friend that we all love to 'play'.

Well, complaining that the hospital is killing him is NOT the answer. Maybe you know something about graphics (surgery), you could help the patient.

But you don't. You DO mention these things over and over again. Please make files like the rest of us and share them. Give the patient a break.

For example: There was NO REPLAY in CIV2!!! That meant there was no reward and summary of what lands I had conquered. What was the point of playing it without a replay? But, it was fun so I accepted it. There were many such 'issues' that I had to get over (especially the fake-3D isometric map).

So please, balance your opinion and tell us 10 things you LIKE about Civilization 3! Thank you.

[TiredEnglishman]

List good points? What's the point of that? People post the bad points so that they may be fixed. Look on the main board, at the post "v1.16f Issues. Bugs. This is the thread". Notice how Jeffery Morris titles it. He wants to know whats wrong with it so that it can be looked it. He didn't post "v1.16f Tells us the good stuff about it". Yes it does get classed as whining when people dislike something about it, but in all honesty when you have paid money for a game, surely you have a right to give your opinion on it and its features. Whether they be good or bad.

"Civilization II didn't have a replay feature" - True, but the replay has only ever seen the cherry on the icing of a nice cake. Civ II didn't have the replay, but it had everything else. What's the point of having a reply feature when the game isn't good enough to want to make you replay it?

Civilization III isn't the worse game ever (I even like it), the thing is a lot of it's potential has gone unrealised and one outside the buiding of the Firaxians can only do so much to help the 'patient' survive. Some of the things Lib listed have been fixed thanks to dedicated people, but not everything wrong can be accessed.

My two pence worth!

T.E.

[shyaway]

IMO

the stack movement function really needed to be in-game.
playing a huge map... owning 100ish workers... issueing 1 by 1 to do their jobs... no wonder i always quit the game half way, LoL

[Special_Olympic]

I couldn't agree more... with every point. I almost feel sick to my stomach when I think of playing. For the first few weeks the game is very addictive, but the problem is it's NOT FUN and that sucks.