Dan Magaha explains Firaxis position on late-game tedium

[Libertarian]

Well, even a blind pig...

[Steve Clark]

Firaxis is not HIDING anything. There will be an expansion pack or gold edition or whatever it is called that will include a more playable version and of course, those scenarios. It has to because Infogrammes demands it because they know this license is a cash cow for them. It doesn't matter what Firaxis does or doesn't want to do (or what you want them to say or not say), they are contractually obligated to Infogrammes regarding the distribution of anything related to Civ3. So what good would it do to have Jeff or Dan come here and announce that? It would just cause a needless firestorm.

Just like they couldn't specifically state what was or was not going to be in the initial release because they didn't know what they could have gotten done by the time it had to go gold. This does not exonerate Firaxis for I believe they could have planned better (and not devote as much resources to artists). I know you think you can scream about such business tactics, but Infogrammes does not care. The alternative would have Firaxis buying the Civ license from Infogrammes and releasing the game on their website. That would not have worked because they would not be able to generate the sales to even pay for the license. Instead of bemoaning reality, let's work together on what needs to be done to improve this game. The desires for Civ3 thread is an excellent place to do this, imo.

[Libertarian]

Steve, with all due respect, we have told them what needs to be done to improve this game. We have done their play testing and have given them detailed reports. But they keep refusing to acknowledge our emissary. They don't need Infogrames' permission to treat us with common courtesy.

Besides, I doubt that the game is being spec'd by Infogrames. (After all, their helpful tip is that we should build a nonexistant port for our units to stand on.) It is Firaxis who is responsible that the game is boring. Maybe we shouldn't have offered our input. They've gotten a portion of our money already, and now they're getting our toil.

A frigging thank-you is long overdue. So is an informative update.

[Ming]

I don't know about you Lib... but I'm not expecting a "Thank you for showing us how many flaws are in our game" message from Firaxis

But seriously... I will continue to argue with you that they haven't acknowledged the suggestions or "help". Again, they do respond when they have something definite to say (and we can argue until the moon is blue whether this is the right approach, but it is the approach they are taking) and even started a thread ASKING us for our input.

So... they aren't ignoring us... or don't seem to be ungrateful at all... They just haven't figured out what they can or can not do yet...

[John-SJ]

Originally posted by Steve Clark
There will be an expansion pack or gold edition or whatever it is called that will include a more playable version and of course, those scenarios.

Steve, I can't tell whether you are serious or trying to be sarcastic or ironic. A " " would have helped.

Anyway, speaking only for myself, fat chance I'll be buying any expansion pack or gold edition of this game. Things would have to change DRASTICALLY!!! before I would even consider wasti... I mean spending any more money on this game.

"Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me."

John-SJ

[Libertarian]

Ming,

Well, I've never told a customer "thank you for pointing out the failings of my ASP page". But I have told many of them, "thank you for helping to make our site better". None has failed to acknowledge that simple courtesy.

Yes, they started a thread asking for our input. I'm too new here to know the terminology, but at Straight Dope, we call a thread that is, from all indications, abandoned by its Opening Poster a "hit and run".

I don't doubt that you have a bit of insider knowledge, given your position, and perhaps that is why you are able to paint their absenteeism with a rosy brush. But from where I sit, I was once their biggest fan. And now I feel like they despise me. Maybe that's entirely my fault.

But maybe not.

-----

John,

You betcha.

[Heliodorus]

Originally posted by Libertarian
Well, I've never told a customer "thank you for pointing out the failings of my ASP page". But I have told many of them, "thank you for helping to make our site better". None has failed to acknowledge that simple courtesy.

Not to point out the obvious, the latter message could only logically be sent once Firaxis actually MAKES the games better...



Continuing my own ironic humorous notion - Lib, what WOULD you say if the folks over at Firaxis said thanks for helping make improvements before they actually did anything about them?

I wouldn't dare send you one until afterward...

[Ming]

Originally posted by Libertarian
Ming,
I don't doubt that you have a bit of insider knowledge, given your position, and perhaps that is why you are able to paint their absenteeism with a rosy brush.

My position

HA HA HA HA

I'm only a mod and a long time poster

You know as much as I do when it comes to insider knowledge

I base my opinions (for what they are worth) on my almost 50 years of life experience... not insider knowledge

A mod... insider knowledge... stop it, you're killing me

[Libertarian]

Continuing my own ironic humorous notion - Lib, what WOULD you say if the folks over at Firaxis said thanks for helping make improvements before they actually did anything about them?

I would say, "You're welcome."

But you've morphed the analogy into a red herring. What we should be thanked for at this point, as I said, is the play testing.

[CharlesUFarley]

Originally posted by Lemmy
Go Ming!!!

Someone mentioned Firaxis exaggerated the product, did they really? Did they promise features that aren't in the game? I don't think so.

Boy are you wrong. I guess you haven't play-tested the entire game yet. I posted several "quotes" from the magazine ads, and the online articles that stated what Civ3 was going to have in the way of features, and it has nowhere near what it said it would. I'll give you one, the "un-precidented editor" with "greatly expanded scenario design capability". To say such a thing, implies everything, but in reality means nothing. I've tested the editor's limits, and those quotes are exgarerated! But I'm not going to get into this with you, as I've argued and WON this point with too many people. And since you just walked in on the conversation it would be a waste of my time. Sorry.

about Firaxis answering questions:
They could say what exactly they are working on right now, and what they're fixing, but what if they change their minds, and won't to try a different approach, or even worse, they find out it can't be fixed, due to lack of resources or just plain impossible.

Then they would more fans angry then now, because they said they were fixing it (which could be interpreted as a promise to fix it).

Either way they'll have angry fans, it's naive to think that a game company won't have negative feedback. And I don't know exactly what's bothering Lib on this peticular point, but what bothers me, is that not only have my "posts" been completely ignored, but when they do answer they give us a "when we know something, we'll let you know". Thats fine. But that's also lying. These guys at Firaxis KNOW exatcly whats going on behind the curtain. They KNOW exactly what sort of features are possible, and what aren't. The PROBLEM is, they won't share with the rest of the class, as I said before. And if they change their mind half-way through production, big deal. It happens, just keep us informed. Very simple.

Charles.

[CharlesUFarley]

Originally posted by Steve Clark
Firaxis is not HIDING anything. There will be an expansion pack or gold edition or whatever it is called that will include a more playable version and of course, those scenarios. It has to because Infogrammes demands it because they know this license is a cash cow for them. It doesn't matter what Firaxis does or doesn't want to do (or what you want them to say or not say), they are contractually obligated to Infogrammes regarding the distribution of anything related to Civ3. So what good would it do to have Jeff or Dan come here and announce that? It would just cause a needless firestorm.

Ahh, do we need to go over this again Steve? Ofcoarse they're hiding, you actually think that there are 30 people sitting around at Firaxis staring at a monitor reading a complaint forum wondering "what are we going to do about this". I don't think so. They know exactly what they're working on, and how much progress they're making. What we have here is a group of 30 people designing a product, and on the other hand we have thousands of fans also designing a product... It just so happens that our ideas are either "out of their ability to code" or our ideas are "very good". Take your pick, either way it's embarrasing for them, and that's why they are "hiding" or in other words, avoiding the forums which is essentially the fans. Its a good strategy though, I would probably tuck my tail and do the same thing, If the fans shamed my "design team". ya think?

And I'm sorry to say but Infogrames is no excuse. I don't think it's on the contract anywhere to release a half-tested product, missing so many features to intentionally piss off the consumers, do you? Firaxis could at any point have put their foot down, and said "If we don't finish this, it will affect sales and the company reputation" and stuck to their guns. And even if the contract did somehow force them to do so, what idiot signed it? Think about it. And the more money the product makes the better. In this case they released a crappy product that is losing it's value and sales. Question is, did they have any idea it would do so? Ofcoarse they did, game companies don't walk into the market without a plan. They're a (cough) professionals.

[Steve Clark]

Farley, we will have to agree to disagree. Have a Merry Christmas.

[CharlesUFarley]

Originally posted by Ming
I don't know about you Lib... but I'm not expecting a "Thank you for showing us how many flaws are in our game" message from Firaxis

But seriously... I will continue to argue with you that they haven't acknowledged the suggestions or "help". Again, they do respond when they have something definite to say (and we can argue until the moon is blue whether this is the right approach, but it is the approach they are taking) and even started a thread ASKING us for our input.

So... they aren't ignoring us... or don't seem to be ungrateful at all... They just haven't figured out what they can or can not do yet...

I'm sorry I do not agree. They know *EXACTLY* what they're doing and what can or cannot be done. They just choose not to tell us. It's as I said before, they're hiding from any real results or conclusions because they could be fatal, at this point it's a "one wrong move..." type scenario. A "nothing definate to say" saves them from being liable to any changes we may not approve of. In the future. It's like someone having an argument with you, and when you finally "prove" your point, they all of a sudden shut up and have nothing to say. It's *obviuos* what that means.

Charles.

[CharlesUFarley]

Originally posted by Steve Clark
Farley, we will have to agree to disagree. Have a Merry Christmas.

heh heh.. damn I couldn't goat you this time eh? Well (shrug) I tried, gotta give me some credit. Merry Christmas to you too.

Charles.

[LRotan]

Originally posted by John-SJ

Anyway, speaking only for myself, fat chance I'll be buying any expansion pack or gold edition of this game.
John-SJ

Neither will I. I paid for the game once and didn't get it, at least not all of it. I'm not going to pay for it a second time to get the complete version.

LR