Dan Magaha explains Firaxis position on late-game tedium

[Ming]

Originally posted by techumseh
I never said they were "TRYING TO INSULT" me. I said they insulted the scenario community, including me, by pointedly ignoring our letter.

Again, an opinion and nothing more. An insult taken but not intended is not an insult in my opinion, it's just a misunderstanding. So I guess we are both welcome to our own opinions.

It is very possible (IMHO) that they really don't know what they are going to do now. No matter what they say at this moment, nobody is going to like it. So they are probably waiting until it's a done deal so they don't mislead anybody... either way.

Anyway, this is not about Libertarians' or my (or anyones') hurt feelings. It's about a disappointing game release and HOW THE COMPANY IS DEALING WITH ITS' UNHAPPY CUSTOMERS!

Gee... it sounds like hurt feelings to me... you talk about insults, and as you even agree, no insult is intended. They are still talking to the community when they have solid information to provide. They have already provided one patch... they are at least trying... THAT IS THE INTENT I SEE... Unlike some companies that just stopped support the second sales took a nose dive. So just because they haven't given you the information you want... maybe it is because they don't know yet.

[CapTVK]

Originally posted by Ming

It is very possible (IMHO) that they really don't know what they are going to do now. No matter what they say at this moment, nobody is going to like it. So they are probably waiting until it's a done deal so they don't mislead anybody... either way.

I mostly wonder if there's even anything left they're allowed to do. The responsibility on what to do with Civ3 doesn't seem to rest with the developers anymore. I'll continue my wait-and-see attitude for now. Trying to second guess Infogrames/Firaxis's motives doesn't accomplish much at the moment.

Apart from upping your post count.

[techumseh]

Whatever....

[Libertarian]

Oh, for cryin' out loud.

I can't imagine outright ignoring someone who has play tested your software and is offering input to be interpreted in any way other than an insult. Gah, Ming. Why can't they just SAY what you're saying they MEAN? Don't you understand that it would be different if they were to go down the list of top ten things in the other thread, for example, and say things like, "Great input! We hope we can do this. We are looking at it. We agree that it would make a big difference. We'll let everyone know as soon as we know something. Oh, and thanks a lot for helping us."

Is that somehow beyond the pall? Don't you understand how much different that is than a cold, sterile, begrudging acknowledgment tossed like pittance after days on end of begging for an answer? Or worse, still no answer, as in Techumseh's case?

This ain't rocket science.

[Peter Triggs]

Actually, we were warned. This is from the Poly news archive:

QT3 PREVIEW: SKEPTICAL
(1 June 2001, 21:55 EST/Civ3) Not everyone feels assured that Civilization III is going to live up to expectations. Quarter to Three has posted a "60 second preview" <http://www.quartertothree.com/featur...iv3/civ3.shtml> of the game, as they call it, on their website today. Site co-owner/webmaster Tom Chick is confident that the game will be a successful, whilst the other half of QtT's administrative team -- Mark Asher -- is not so sure.

[W]hen I think of all the hours I've spent on games with titles that began with "Sid Meier's...", I can't help but sit back, trust that he knows what he's doing, and look forward to a compelling strategy game this holiday season, Chick calmly concludes.

Asher is not convinced.

[I'm probably being a bit unfair to this game, but I was so far below being whelmed by Civ 3 that I needed a pick and shovel just to mine my way back up to underwhelming] The best part about the presentation I went to was watching Jeff Briggs' bald head start to bead up when I asked how they were going to get rid of the end-game tedium that has always plagued the Civ series. He showed me a streamlined tech tree, like that was some kind of answer? [All the while Sid Meier was standing in the corner of the room with his arms folded in front of his chest, never uttering a word during the presentation. He was like the Godfather and Briggs was his lieutenant, and you just knew Meier was going to bust Briggs over the head with a coffee mug if he said something stupid.] So what's CivIII like? It's CivII with improved graphics and a few new wrinkles.

Edited for emphasis and to include Asher's full comments.

[Ming]

Oh... I hear you Libertarian. And in a perfect world, I would expect them to read EVERY LINE HERE, and POST A RESPONSE TO EVERY INDIVIDUAL POST HERE... But come on, that just isn't going to happen. Let's face reality here.

There are THOUSANDS OF US, and they are a very small company.
And while we wish there was somebody dedicated to answering our EVERY post... think about it. This is only ONE of the MANY fan sites dedicated to civ right now. Just think about the time needed to reveiw EVERY site... EVERY post... it just isn't feasible.
All companies are running thin right now... We, like most business have had to lay off MANY, MANY good workers... because the economy sucks. We don't provide HALF the client service we used to just 18 months ago. That's reality...

They could spend HOURS and HOURS for each site simplying saying, we are aware of this and we don't know yet to each and every question. And again, as pointed out, financial concerns are probably effecting what they will be able to do. Heck, if the game really bombs, they could go bankrupt and WE WILL NEVER SEE ANYMORE SUPPORT. I would much rather have them trying to fix what they can with their resources than dedicating a ton of PR people to post the standard response to every question.

Heck, they started a thread asking about problems... We would be stupid to assume that they aren't aware of ALL the problems.
The fact that they don't respond doesn't mean they aren't aware.
It has become really clear now that they are only responding when they have something definite to say... is that the best choice... probably not... but it may be their only choice based on available resourses.

From looking at posting times, it is obvious that Dan and Jeff are reviewing this site on "their free time"... come on, these guys deserve a life too.

I still stand by the ole... "What have their actions to date told us"
While some would say, they aren't answering all the questions...
I would point out that they ARE answering questions when they have real answers... They have provided the first patch... and then fixed it quickly when they realized they had made some mistakes in the original patch.

To me... this says they are still supporting the game. Again, remember what happened with CPT II

So yeah, the glass is either half full or half empty... and I'm an optimist at this point because they are still responding and looking for input.

They could be better than the approach they are taking, but at least they have been taking AN approach.

[Bugg]

It seems to me that Firaxis by saying that they didnt know what they could about late game tedium is actually asking for solutions. If I were a modder I would create the flatcar or semi- truck or C130. These are used just like the naval transport. You load and unload units. Not the ultimate solution but if you wanted to move 40 units you would only have to move 5 units instead of 40. If anyone can make a unit like this you will end up on my christmas list.

[CharlesUFarley]

Originally posted by Ming
Oh... I hear you Libertarian. And in a perfect world, I would expect them to read EVERY LINE HERE, and POST A RESPONSE TO EVERY INDIVIDUAL POST HERE... But come on, that just isn't going to happen. Let's face reality here.

There are THOUSANDS OF US, and they are a very small company.
And while we wish there was somebody dedicated to answering our EVERY post... think about it. This is only ONE of the MANY fan sites dedicated to civ right now. Just think about the time needed to reveiw EVERY site... EVERY post... it just isn't feasible.
All companies are running thin right now... We, like most business have had to lay off MANY, MANY good workers... because the economy sucks. We don't provide HALF the client service we used to just 18 months ago. That's reality...

I too can understand the issue of "not enough man-power" or "resources" to complete a task, such as answering thousands of questions and posts. You're right, it isn't feasible. But in many posts in these forums, I made several good suggestions on how they could improve they're PR with the community. And they are aware of my suggestiongs. But still they fumble around, and turn up vague. My suggestion was that they should take all the information (questions etc) and respond in ONE post, set in a public forum for everone to read. A detailed post as to where they're progress is. If they don't know whether or not they're going to add a feature, they say exactly that! If they know for a fact that it's tedius and impossible to alter the coding to accomidate a single feature that many have requested, they should say exactly that. Either way, they can't stop the damage to their reputation or avoid it. If it's going to happen, it will happen. Now, they should be trying to justify all of this, and do *something* to repair all of this damage. The "one post" idea in a public forum, is a winner. But I don't know why they don't use it, rather than this barbaric method they have now. Do you?

They could spend HOURS and HOURS for each site simplying saying, we are aware of this and we don't know yet to each and every question. And again, as pointed out, financial concerns are probably effecting what they will be able to do. Heck, if the game really bombs, they could go bankrupt and WE WILL NEVER SEE ANYMORE SUPPORT. I would much rather have them trying to fix what they can with their resources than dedicating a ton of PR people to post the standard response to every question.

As I mentioned before, there are *many* ways to do PR without hurting their finances, or their manpower. What about newsletters updating everyone as to how much progress they've made? And if they go bankrupt it's due to bad business decision, and poor quality. Not the mobs.

Heck, they started a thread asking about problems... We would be stupid to assume that they aren't aware of ALL the problems.
The fact that they don't respond doesn't mean they aren't aware.
It has become really clear now that they are only responding when they have something definite to say... is that the best choice... probably not... but it may be their only choice based on available resourses.

Again, I think your missing the point. Sure we can all sit back and say "aww poor Firaxis, we really should cut them slack, give them months of our time and more, whatever it takes to support them" but the fact is, that kind of simple mercy doesn't exist. When people aren't happy with their product(s) they consult the company that produced it. And if they aren't please by the responses or lack of, then they begin to become bitter! Once they are bitter, they start to realize that they actually are at a loss because they spent money on it. Then all hell breaks loose, not only did we get a bad product, but we spent our hard earned dollars on it. You forget, we too worked for that money that was spent to purchase the game. And after 5 years of feedback, and high hopes, Firaxis disapoints us (for whatever reason, but irrilevent to the fans I'm sure) and we're suppose to sit around a campfire with them, hooting songs? C'mon. They don't need support, we've given them that! They need to get their priorities straight and get to work!

From looking at posting times, it is obvious that Dan and Jeff are reviewing this site on "their free time"... come on, these guys deserve a life too.

Who said anything about them not having a life, or insisting that they are some type of machine, and should become our slaves? No one is saying anything like that. But they are a business, and this is a sales matter. They exagerated the product, and the consumers aren't happy. Now they have a job to do. And I think they should do it. Otherwise, people should be walking the streets with little cans collecting money for them. Not to mention a "save the Firaxis fund" on the weekends. Be realistic! It's business not personal.

I still stand by the ole... "What have their actions to date told us"
While some would say, they aren't answering all the questions...
I would point out that they ARE answering questions when they have real answers... They have provided the first patch... and then fixed it quickly when they realized they had made some mistakes in the original patch.

" They are answering our questions, when they have answers? " Thats a little bit too much BS for me. Again this has been proven time and time again. They're PR died off after Civ2, and since then we've had nothing but vague and cold "responses" from them, and nothing more. None of the information I have seen so far has been helpful to the community. All we know is that they're working on "something". Are you trying to tell me they have NO IDEA what they're working on? Because if they have no idea what they're doing, then perhaps you have a point. But I think they know exactly what they're working on, but they don't wanna share with the rest of the class. And to suggest that they dont have to tell us, would only worsen the effect on they're already tarnished reputation. If you get my meaning.

So yeah, the glass is either half full or half empty... and I'm an optimist at this point because they are still responding and looking for input.

I too will wait to see what happens, I'm not going to completely give up on Firaxis, but they do have something to prove to us now, and everyone is watching.

They could be better than the approach they are taking, but at least they have been taking AN approach.

Do, or Do not. Never try. - Yoda.
Charles.

[Lemmy]

Go Ming!!!

Someone mentioned Firaxis exaggerated the product, did they really? Did they promise features that aren't in the game? I don't think so.

about Firaxis answering questions:

They could say what exactly they are working on right now, and what they're fixing, but what if they change their minds, and won't to try a different approach, or even worse, they find out it can't be fixed, due to lack of resources or just plain impossible.

Then they would more fans angry then now, because they said they were fixing it (which could be interpreted as a promise to fix it).

[Blackadar1]

I'm glad to see discussions like this now. Early on, during the initial release of Civ III, I was one of the folks who didn't think the game lived up to its potential and said so. Problems with the AI, the units, the resources, etc. were readily apparent, but many were so enamoured with the concept of a Civ III that they attacked anyone with a negative (or even neutral) opinion, so I chose not to post in a hostile environment.

It's nice to see that that table-thumping has calmed down enough so that people can actually explore the shortcomings of the program. Too bad that Firaxis doesn't seem to have a clear plan in place to deal with the issues presented. I'm hoping that Plutaric's (sp?) mod fixes many of the issues...

[Libertarian]

Did they promise features that aren't in the game? I don't think so.

Think again.

-----

From www.civ3.com
Yes, the game runs under Windows 95/98/Me/2000/XP without any problems.

I refer you to the bugs thread above with a bazillion reports of XP problems.

From www.civ3.com
The diplomacy model is being completely overhauled to allow trading of many, many types of resources, commodities, Agreements, Technologies, units, gold, and cities in practically any combination that you can trick your opponent into accepting

Units? What units? Did they mean workers perhaps?

From www.civ3.com
Yes, you will absolutely be able to create your own units! With regards to unit customization, we're committed to the scenario/mod community, and we realize that the ability to create diverse, interesting scenarios is one of the major reasons for Civilization II's enduring popularity. To that end, we'll be developing extensive tools for scenario and mod creators to use which will allow them to create whatever they can think of. Flexibility is the order of the day.

I refer you to the now defunct thread with impassioned pleas from the scenario community for a functioning editor that includes, among other things, the ability to place starting tribes where you want them, and zoom out to see your map.

From www.civ3.com
We're working on some cool multiplayer concepts that will take a fresh approach to the challenge of making multiplayer for a turn-based game fun. We're not yet ready to give details, but stay tuned. When we have more to report, the site will be updated and our fans, as always, will be the first to know!

Uh huh. Perhaps you'd care to join one of the many multi-player games now underway.

From www.civ3.com
The limited edition Civilization III comes in a special tin, and includes everything in the standard edition plus designer's notes from Sid Meier and Jeff Briggs, a fold-out tech tree, and a CD-ROM with behind-the-scenes footage of "The Making of Civ III" and Sid's induction into the IDSA Hall of Fame.

I refer you to the massively angry threads about the so-called designer's notes.

From www.civ3.com
Improved combat options provide finer levels of control for enhanced war-making capabilities.

I leave you to judge whether that's true or false. *cough* Helicopter *cough*

From www.civ3.com
Technologies, Wonders Of The World and Great People expand the scope of the game.

Yeah. I'm always thrilled when I get my Radio advance.

From www.civ3.com
Easier-to-use interface for streamlined management and better control.

Dear lord. If managing workers and military units were any less streamlined, we'd have to move them one tile at a time.

-----

I won't even mention things like air superiority which were promised but weren't tested and didn't work until the patch. I leave people to judge for themselves whether these promises were kept or broken.

[Ming]

Libertarian

You think that maybe they should update their site

[Libertarian]

At this point, it couldn't hurt a thing.

And please, call me Lib.

[Steve Clark]

Just trying to catch up a little and not realizing there was a chat (I thought it was Christmas day, but I didn't read the news).

Lib, the reason I had some sympathy for Firaxis' developers is that I have been in the same position, albeit on a difference scale. I found it perfectly acceptable to give an answer "don't know if I can fix it or not" to my customers on a programming bug. Actually, most of the time I tend not to say anything about it because sometime I just don't know (I totally believe in the adage, "best keep silent and be thought of as a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt"). I see it the same way with Firaxis regarding the two issues. While you and others may have saw this as "not acknowledging the problem", I saw it as "don't have an clue what can be done about it". It happens in real life lots of times and not surprisingly, it happened here as I knew it would.

Regarding the tedium of playing Civ3, I had said this weeks ago, but chalked it up to more of my playing style than faults with the game. They purposely dragged out the game into the eras so they can satisfy those that wanted the [insert your favorite] era lasts longer. That's exactly what we got and now folks are wanting the opposite? As far as late game tedium, ever play Nemo's RF and SF? They made the Civ3 modern era play just like those two highly rated scenarios and folks are complaining? I know those aren't for everybody but did you expect a Civ3 game to be played in its entirety in 3-6 hours? And, what happened to all of those folks here that wanted to spending weeks playing a single game with 16 civs?

What is the balance between a meaningful 20-30 hour game (which is what I expected) to those want a 6 hour game and those that want a 60 hour game? If you were the developer, how would you go about designing (or patching) a game where knowing that no matter what you come up with, 20% will love it, 20% will hate it and 60% won't care?

[Libertarian]

Steve,

Thanks for your erudition and insight. It's a matter of record that, rather than having any problem with "we don't know", I in fact accept that as a satisfactory answer.

Thing is, that answer wasn't given, at least not without coy equivocation, until I made the announcement in this thread. The original answer, for which the community begged and pleaded in a long succession of ignored threads, was essentially that they would make a statement when they felt like they had something to say. Not that they didn't know. Not that they did know. Just that they had nothing to say.

I, too, am a developer. And I, too, know better than to promise anything that I have not already spec'd to a fare-thee-well. However, I also know that the proper way to account for my mistakes is not to put my head in the sand or hold my users in contempt, but rather to admit my mistake and plea for their unmerited indulgence.

I understand that money flows from them to me; i.e., I owe them — not the other way around.