My Conclusions about the Firaxis-Community relations

[Killerdaffy]

Originally posted by Ozymandous

If Firaxis didn't give a crap they wouldn't post at all. It would be easy for them to tell Dan to only visit certain, if any, fan sites and to never post on ANY sites except the official one. At least they respond when they can. Why don't you learn a lesson in humility and understand that you're not the ONLY person asking questions but one of hundreds or thousands.

I think this is part of the problem, as several other posters have already pointed out. While the number of members here at Apolyton has grown immensely over the last months, I still think that a place like civ3.com is more visible. So if there are OFFICIAL statements from one of the designers, programmers or customer support, why not put them there? It'd be easier to find for everybody (certainly easier than to read a couple of hundred new posts here and in other forums (civfanatics,...). This would furthermore defuse more of the questions about whether or not a post is official... It's all about efficiency and effectiveness.

It's funny how mistakes in one department of a company get attributed personally to people. Even though Jeff, Dan, Soren & Co actually do more of the hands-on work, they are held responsible for mistakes made by marketing or, even better, their publisher. Those were bad mistakes (I especially like the cease and desist order vs. the german translation project, the act of a true marketing genius or the decision to postpone the non-US release of the same version by two weeks... ) but still nobody should attribute that to anyone of the programmers who actually shows up here on the boards. If you want to make a point really badly but don't feel heard - spam the management. Most of the e-mail addresses have been here on the board, whether originally public or not (Ok, you probably won't get answers but that's to be expected ).

And I agree that some people think a little bit too much of themselves. Yes, you are a customer and a smart company will listen to its customers. But no, this does not mean that every post will be answered individually, even if it so demands in rather vocal terms.

Nuff said.

[Steve Clark]

Ozy, you are my hero. But unfortunately, your level-headed satire will go right over the heads of slef-centered, ego maniacs here. Additionally, just substitute yin in for Lib and you got the crux of the issue when the holy relic called the List wasn't the final design document for Civ3. (That, and the bitterness of him being fired from being the moderator here, but that's history.)

My little boy who is 4, loves fire trucks. The analogy I have tried to use about different color fire trucks was apt because some here acts like 4 year olds. Actually, there is nothing wrong with wanting a green fire truck with certain features. But to do it at the expense of those wanting different colors is not what civing should be about. Because of Civ's flexibility and customizability, we can have a red one or a green one or a purple one, depending on what we like. Each may not be perfect, but at least it's not a self-centered view in DEMANDING that all fire trucks should be green and if the developer does not make it all green (or with specific set of features), then they must be evil. And this extends to the stupid attitude that EVERYONE must like a green one. But if you look outside of the ego, there are quite of few civers enjoying playing with the truck, regardless of what color they got. For me personally, I'm patiently waiting for the ability to change the fire truck into a police car.

[Killerdaffy]

Talking about colors...

Originally posted by Steve Clark

My little boy who is 4, loves fire trucks. The analogy I have tried to use about different color fire trucks was apt because some here acts like 4 year olds. Actually, there is nothing wrong with wanting a green fire truck with certain features. But to do it at the expense of those wanting different colors is not what civing should be about. Because of Civ's flexibility and customizability, we can have a red one or a green one or a purple one, depending on what we like. Each may not be perfect, but at least it's not a self-centered view in DEMANDING that all fire trucks should be green and if the developer does not make it all green (or with specific set of features), then they must be evil. And this extends to the stupid attitude that EVERYONE must like a green one. But if you look outside of the ego, there are quite of few civers enjoying playing with the truck, regardless of what color they got. For me personally, I'm patiently waiting for the ability to change the fire truck into a police car.

Originally posted by Steve Clark
As frequently predicted, Firaxis spent way too much resources on graphics and artists and not enough on programmers and scenario designers.

I love how this analogy relates to your sig!

And think you are right with your post. Patience is a virtue rarely appreciated in a real-time society.

[Redstar]

maybe i shouldn't post this but...

"But what, exactly, are they working on? What have they even considered? Have they heard our requests?
...Has not anyone at Firaxis ever played into the modern age and thought to himself, 'Damnation! This is tedious!'?


We don't need to know exactly what they are working on. All we need to do is post the bugs and the issues we have with civ3.
We all know Firaxis reads this forum and has requested it. Its only natural to assume they will take all the reasonable expectations into consideration. They have as much said this.

As to what they do implement, i will give them the benefit of the doubt in what they choose to address.

I for one was very impressed when they fixed that shift-p issue so very fast. SO we should all note that they are fixing bugs.
Design complaints i would imagine are lower on their to do list.
(i am content to imagine this as i don't need to be told specifically.)

As far as the playing in the modern age...i know one person has for sure (this if i really believed they would not have play tested the basic mechanics before releasing).

Anyway my most basic point is...we all know Firaxis has seen our posts. Whether or not they choose to act on these is irrelevant for the moment. We can all just wait patiently now. I think its safe to say this board only rehashes the same concerns now.
Nothing new to see.

[Deornwulf]

Ozzy

I think you are missing the point of a forum. It is for the free expression of ideas, no matter how flawed they may appear to be. The posters may represent a very small minority and can do very little to affect the sales of the game. Firaxis is free to ignore the dissatisfied and move on to the next game. They don't owe anything to the "whiners" on this board.

That said, it would be a very poor business practice to do just as you suggest. For a company to be successful, it has to be concerned about the satisfaction of everyone of its customers. I can give you several examples and non-examples to support this viewpoint.

This forum is a very useful tool to Firaxis and any other game company wishing to develop a decent TBS game. Instead of mocking the opinions of others with clever little witticisms, try offering your own opinion about particular elements about the game.

[Steve Clark]

Killerdaffy, thank you for pointing that out. This was an opinion I had expressed for months prior to the release and it became obvious in actuality when the game was released. My bias is scenarios but unlike some here, I think many colors and features of fire trucks are all equally important. To throw a pre-schooler tantrum because you think 'your' way is the only way or 'your' questions are the more important, well, that's not what a forum should be about.

[Libertarian]

Four — four! (that's all your fingers, not including your thumb, on one hand) — threads have drawn unanimous — unanimous! (that's not one person dissenting) — support for stack movement.

Four threads. Unanimous. Not one person's question, but many peoples' question. And yet, no response. Enough was enough.

One thing's for sure, I never thought I'd see the day I was compared to Yin! Ain't life strange?

[Steve Clark]

Lib:
So? Do you think that perhaps,
1) they (Firaxis) are looking at the programmatic feasability of doing this (or are you one of those types that think all fixes involve one line of code)?
2) they made the change but found it causes other problems?
3) they made the change but would find it more feasible to bundle it in with other 'fixes'?

I am picking on you in a good natured way (but using you as an example), but why do you think it (whatever your 'needs' are) is so **** important? Are you so impatient that you must have your/other's way NOW?!? Even if you can't work around this like thousands of other civers are doing, why is it so important to play anyways? I have not played Civ3 in a while because I am waiting for the scenarios. You don't see me screaming at them for the scenarios, do you? They will get here when they get here, and if they don't, that's fine too, my life is not too shallow to think that my gaming desires are really that important. Patience IS a virtue.

[Malleus]

People who make ad hominum attacks are never in the possession of the right answer. Their arguments are never correct.

This is my criterion when I go on message boards and read about a new game. This also allows me to consider the source for postings (based on that user's prior posts) and skip those that are irrelevant.

Perhaps more folks should consider using this rule...especially in light of this extremely rude and fractious community.

K

[yin26]

gachnar: LOL! Fair enough, much appreciated. I look forward to more debates (hopefully productive) between us.

Xentropy: I guess you stopped reading the part of that thread where I said I was pulling people's chians? Don't misrepresent me. If you want to after me, get your facts straight. I will say, though, the past few weeks I have not given much effort to explaining myself fully. Why? Because all I've done on the forums the past SEVERAL months is explain myself. Excuse me if I get tired sometimes and simply jump to the conclusion without including the 500 word support.

Steve: Get over the List, buddy. Your pop-psychology theory was wrong 6 months ago and it's still wrong after you've posted it 1,000 times. So you can either keep on trolling about that and look like a complete ass, or you can actually read what I'm typing / listen to what I've told you my issues with Firaxis are.

[yin26]

Back on the topic of PR, Dan gave another good example of what I'm talking about: Why are a number of questions answered deep inside a thread most of the Civ world will never see?

And let me make this clear: I don't see this as a 'Dan Problem,' though I don't think he is the proper PR guy to begin with, for various reasons. That said, it's the Firaxis leadership that sets the tone and the methods for dealing with the public.

As far as I know, Dan and Jeff are here on their own time ... and that's part of the problem, a major part, actually.

[Steve Clark]

And good morning to you, my friend! (It is morning there, right?)

As far as I know, Dan and Jeff are here on their own time ... and that's part of the problem, a major part, actually.

You know, I thought Dan's job was webmaster at Firaxis and Jeff was the project leader/programmer. Silly of me to think that posting in a fan forum should be their job. You know what it comes down to? I don't think Firaxis should treat THIS community anymore importantly than any other community or any other non-forum customers actually. I know there are exceptions out there but coming here has and will always be a "damned if you do and damned if you don't" proposition for them. I would tend to go to the "don't" side because the alternative is just too much work and aggravation, as many posters (including me) here can attest.

I draw a parallel to my real job. I, too, am in software development. I communicate with my customers in a controlled environment. I ask leading questions at the appropriate time, I provide them with information when they become factual and I have colleagues (who are not the customers) whom I can bounce ideas off of. Anything else will take time and effort away from what's really important, getting my work done in the most cost effective manner.

[gaikokujin]

Re: This is amusing...

LOL! Ah, entertainment...well, time to pack up and go home now.

Originally posted by Ozymandous

Translation:

"Please, please, please answer my questions! I am all antsy with the buring desire and uncontrollable need to know everything even though you have already address me at least twice in this thread and said you have said all you could. Your attention alone isn't enough, you *must* also answer all my questions of I will lose hope and heart and be forced (even though I really do like to bash you. ) to bash you some more.

Please, please pay more attention to me so that I won't feel so alone in the world and my life will have meaning. I love you Dan, I really do. ""

[yin26]

Steve:

Yep. Saturday morning here.

Seems we agree. This is why I think you've either got to "Do the fansite thing" and invest lots and lots of time and be empowered by your boss to speak rather openly or let your main site do all the talking for you once you've done the proverbial rounds of the sites to see what the fans are rumbling about.

But catering to Poly in some backwater thread just isn't the way to go. And having (apparently) the company policy of 'If we're not sure, we'll be silent' isn't going to help things. It just fosters paranoia and resentment.

I have always felt that fan sites are best moderated by the fans themselves. What I mean is, if Firaxis would just give us more consistent and clear messages, we would actually police the trouble makers ourselves. But in the light of confusing or simply missing PR efforts, it's pretty hard to put out the flames at times.

A cynical person would say that none of this has affected Civ3 sales at all so it makes zero difference. If true, I suppose I would agree. But I feel that eventually when bad feelings are left untreated it will begin to have some repercussions.

[Trifna]

Let me join the club of people tired of seeing some puting the same arguments constantly, again, and again, and again, and aigain.... and again, and again, and... agaaaain... and agaiinnn.............