My Conclusions about the Firaxis-Community relations

[Hoek]

I hardly think a group of 30 people in Maryland suburb is a paradigm of corporate evil. I think it's a problem of perception on our part. It is a small company and it doesn't necessarily have the same resources to deal with a large volume of customer complaints.

[Libertarian]

Red herring. Paradigm of corporate evil? No, no evil. Just a regrettable incompetence. Namely, the stubborn insistence on proving a point. An irrelevant one.

[Dan Magaha FIRAXIS]

Originally posted by Libertarian
Then where does that leave you, Dan?

When you're silent, people become paranoid and anxious. When you communicate privately, people break your trust. When you say maybe, people take it as yes. When you're evasive (as you are now), people become confrontational.

What's left?

I'll tell you what's left: up-front honesty and concern about the feelings of your fans. You see, it doesn't matter whether you're comfortable; what matters is whether we're comfortable. It doesn't matter whether you're satisfied; what matters is whether we're satisfied. And it doesn't matter what you do about us; it matters what we do about you.

You won't convince me that you have any better course of action than to listen to our concerns, acknowledge our feedback, and keep us in the know. Whatever you do has disadvantages. The policy I'm advising has the least.

Lib:

The thing is, I *am* being up-front and honest, I'm just not able to give you all the answers you seek. I wouldn't have bothered to explain any of this (or post here at all) if I wasn't concerned about the feelings of fans.

Dan

[gachnar]

Originally posted by yin26
LOL! That's a fantastic question...hmmm. I have my theories. No, I'm not posting other places. I suppose I have been branded as the 'anti-Civ3' guy or the 'anti-Firaxis' guy, so it's easy for people to jump on me. Hey, I don't mind people blasting me, my only request is that they actually understand what's posted first.

Hey. Just to clear up some misunderstanding... i wasn't blasting you, yin, but you posed a question that I felt the urge to answer. Other than that question, your post and mine had nothing in common. It was aimed at the people who think its unfair that Firaxis only posts a little information. The company I'm at now does that all the time. The difference: The maturity of our audience.

Perhaps Firaxis should realize this, in which case I say: "Please Please Please Tell Apolyton Nothing!" because people here simply cannot handle pre-release information.

Yin: I still dont have any problem with you. As for why so many people apparently do, ... well... You're highly visible. Like the George W Bush. But smarter and poorer. For some people this makes you an easy target, for others (of which I am a subset) it means that you are a worthy debate opponent (ie: I can have intelligent debates with you, You actually think, etc) In short: People "dislike" you because you respond. There are a lot of other posters who I have been very annoyed with, but I dont even know their names, because they dont respond.

Hell. I even have this nifty tribute to yin in my sig. (Hopefully you're not offended, I find it both symbolic, and a backhanded compliment)

[Desert Dog]

A big joke?

Originally posted by Dan Magaha FIRAXIS
Lib,

It should be fairly obvious that we've been burned before when we've talked about things that we hoped to do but were ultimately unable to. I believe that has a lot to do with the way we deal with uncertainty now: we really prefer not to comment on something until it becomes certain.

For better or worse, a lot of people interpret "maybe" to mean "yes", and then expectations quickly get set. As I'm sure you're aware, for some, unmet expectations can lead to anger, and bitterness, and this just generally creates a bad situation that we'd rather avoid.

Dan

Dan how can you make an ass out of you and Firaxis by coming out here and making a statement like that. Do you realize we are not all kids on here? We expected a sequel to civ 2 that is not a maybe or a yes situation. You guys instead took the shell of Call To Power 2, placed Civ 3 and Sid's name on it. The problem I have This is a worse version of CTP2 not evening touching the good points of civ 2 or Alpha Centauri for that matter.
Dan you will have to avoid the whole industry. I am waging a compaign to get all the mags to print the truth about civ 3, they are getting ready to call it game of the year! Give me a break this is the most bug ridden game I have seen in my 46 years that is for sure.
I was willing to go along and wait on a patch. The patch comes and it is worse then the first rendition of the game. Now I read you are avoiding what you deem our mistake about "OUR EXPECTATIONS"? Listen you did not test the game you did not even finish the game from I am hearing from my sources. I understand you guys are strapped for cash that you decided to fool us all. Admit that the game is really only 85-90% complete and very little testing was done? I have a very reliable source who says that the guys who wrote CTP2 made civ 3. Hoping Sid's name would sell enough copies and bail it out with a patch later. I am still making sure that what I am hearing is 100% accurate. It seems good enough to call your bluff here. Sorry but I am MAD I spent $70.00 and it is clear this game will NEVER live up to civ 2 only in dumb ass print in mags telling the wrong stories! Not one accurate review of this game yet! Fix the damn game!

Desert Dog

[PN]

I would accept, indeed I think I would be pleased, if Firaxis were to put their hands up and say:

• We know that there are these bugs and this is where you can find a comprehensive list
• These old bugs which we said are fixed didn't get fixed really
• Please report any new bugs through this official channel (either Infogrames or a new facility on the official site).
• We acknowledge that there are some stability problems.
• We stand by/withdraw the 1.16 patch (delete as applicable).
• As a result we need to go away, stop talking to you for a while about new features and sort these problems out first.

What I feel is needed is a new baseline code release from which to move forwards. (And capturing new bug reports through these forums is the most inappropriate way to do it.)

For my part, I'm unsure whether or not I should use the 1.16 patch, particularly as (because of a Firaxis post on another thread) I cannot be sure that the bugs that Firaxis say are fixed, really have been fixed at all. [It's the top post where they ask us to say whether the bugs in the readme have been fixed or not.]

[gachnar]

Re: A big joke?

Hey yin26. Here's one of those guys I was talking about:

Originally posted by Desert Dog
Dan how can you make an ass out of you and Firaxis by coming out here and making a statement like that. Do you realize we are not all kids on here? We expected a sequel to civ 2 that is not a maybe or a yes situation. You guys instead took the shell of Call To Power 2, placed Civ 3 and Sid's name on it.

Sorry. You lost me around "We expected a sequel to civ 2 that is not a maybe or a yes situation." I cant even tell what you just said. I'm positive the grammar is poor. But either way, Civ 3 is obviously not based on CTP2.

The problem I have This is a worse version of CTP2 not evening touching the good points of civ 2 or Alpha Centauri for that matter.
Dan you will have to avoid the whole industry. I am waging a compaign to get all the mags to print the truth about civ 3, they are getting ready to call it game of the year! Give me a break this is the most bug ridden game I have seen in my 46 years that is for sure.

Really. You're not perhaps exaggerating a bit, are you? Civ I had more bugs than this. And you are going to wage a campaign to tell the mags to print the truth about Civ3:

News Flash: Desert Dog Doesn't Like Civ 3!
"...(Firaxis) did not even finish the game from I am hearing from my sources" says terribly confusing source.

Yeah. I bet you are very powerful.

I was willing to go along and wait on a patch. The patch comes and it is worse then the first rendition of the game.

In your opinion it was worse. What? You relied on IFE? You liked having free bomber runs at cities that couldn't defend themselves? Or do you hate all the editor changes? In my opinion its much better. Seems like you shouldn't state your opinions as fact. I can see how some people were annoyed by the patch, but most people like the game more with the patch.

Now I read you are avoiding what you deem our mistake about "OUR EXPECTATIONS"? Listen you did not test the game you did not even finish the game from I am hearing from my sources.

And who would these sources be? Your gamer friend?

I understand you guys are strapped for cash that you decided to fool us all. Admit that the game is really only 85-90% complete and very little testing was done? I have a very reliable source who says that the guys who wrote CTP2 made civ 3.

Is this the same source you claimed above? So this source tells you that Activision wrote Civ3 for Firaxis.

Interesting.

Or maybe the aliens wrote it....

Hoping Sid's name would sell enough copies and bail it out with a patch later. I am still making sure that what I am hearing is 100% accurate.

You go do that. And when you are done, post a thread here telling us how accurate your information is. And your source. And a few URLs of reviewers who have been "enlightened" by your incredibly elegant, logical, and factual views.

It seems good enough to call your bluff here. Sorry but I am MAD I spent $70.00 and it is clear this game will NEVER live up to civ 2 only in dumb ass print in mags telling the wrong stories! Not one accurate review of this game yet! Fix the damn game!

Whaa. By "fix" you mean: "Make it exactly the way I want it." And can I add that the smilies make your argument so much clearer?

Want to hear something completely incomprehensible: I like the game. Its fun. Want to hear something even more unbelievable: Most people who bought it think the same way.

But Firaxis should ignore them. Who cares about their opinion. You're the important one here. You're the one who's going to educate all the "print mags".

Firaxis can't make everyone happy. You've made it clear that you shold probably be on that "Impossible to Appease" list.

(yin26: Can we at least agree that this guy is doing absolutely nothing to improve anything on this board? These are the people I'm tired of seeing posts from.)

[Libertarian]

Dan,

In my heart of hearts, I want to believe you. But you have yet even to acknowledge my question — even when I offered it as one of your most ardent supporters. If you don't know, say you don't know, and say it plainly. Here are the questions again for your convenience:

• Does Firaxis understand that some sort of group movement would help alleviate late-game tedium?
• Does Firaxis understand that this is a UNANIMOUS request from the playing community?
• Is Firaxis looking at doing this at all, or is it just not on the list right now?

That's it. Please, straightforward answers. Thanks in advance.

[Golgo13]

I've been reading posts on apolyton for the past couple of months and I am still amazed by the ignorance of people like Desert Dog. Here's a hint: try proofreading what you write. You sound ridiculous enough talking about your secret information sources and claiming that Civ3 is actually CTP2. The least you could do is write coherently. Then you would just be ludicrous and not moronic.

[Malleus]

Originally posted by Hoek
Dan and Lib: what do you think of this idea-use email or private messages for speculative issues. This seems reasonable to me since it wouldn't broadcast tentative plans that could backfire on Firaxis since it would only be an answer to one person. If someone asks "Could you tell me such and such about multiplayer," Dan could ask "could you send me an email or pm" and then answer the question that way. That seems like a good way to smooth things over while respecting Firaxis's need for a bit of secrecy.

A good idea in theory, but can you imagine the volume of email they would receive and reply to personally (even if it is "send prepared response #7")? Or dealing with the spamming attack-wonks like yin who post more times in one day than most of us can count?
My opinion: MarkG and Firaxis need to put some heads together, and have a news item on this site that Firaxis is doing blah and not doing blah at this time, and requests for more info on these issues will go no further at this time because they are aware of fan response in the past, etc. etc.
Make the blanket statement, and it will reduce the volume of spam attack threads for a little while.
Maybe even a weekly update thread by Dan and Jeff would be nice. MarkG could then close it when it's posted.

K

[Dan Magaha FIRAXIS]

Originally posted by Libertarian
Dan,

In my heart of hearts, I want to believe you. But you have yet even to acknowledge my question — even when I offered it as one of your most ardent supporters. If you don't know, say you don't know, and say it plainly. Here are the questions again for your convenience:

• Does Firaxis understand that some sort of group movement would help alleviate late-game tedium?
• Does Firaxis understand that this is a UNANIMOUS request from the playing community?
• Is Firaxis looking at doing this at all, or is it just not on the list right now?

That's it. Please, straightforward answers. Thanks in advance.

Lib,

#1) - Don't know what the opinions are of the designers, and I can't speak for them. Personally, I agree, not that that means much of anything.

#2) - We understand a lot of people would like to see this feature, yes.

#3) - I don't know.


Dan


P.S. Just for the record, I did acknowledge your question when I responded to you that Jeff was the person to ask.

[XPav]

Originally posted by Hoek
I hardly think a group of 30 people in Maryland suburb is a paradigm of corporate evil. I think it's a problem of perception on our part. It is a small company and it doesn't necessarily have the same resources to deal with a large volume of customer complaints.

What's even funnier is that there's probably less than 30 people on these forums all over the world telling this company of 30 people that they're a bunch of corporate scum.

I've seen this "community relations" stuff from the inside -- by being on the team that did Jane's Longbow 2.

Quite frankly, if I was a game developer in charge of a game, I'd say "**** the community, I've got work to do." For every person on a forum that understands reason, there's another one that uses the anonyminity of the Internet to hide behind and slag off on their current target.

Just ignore all the flames by detractors , ignore all the bootlicking by fans, and just make the game.

[Libertarian]

We understand a lot of people would like to see this feature, yes.

Thanks, Dan. I'll shut up about it now.

[Libertarian]

Oy vey, I do want to address this, though. Briefly.

P.S. Just for the record, I did acknowledge your question when I responded to you that Jeff was the person to ask.

I'm in no position to tell you how to do your job. But in my job, when a customer has a question that I know Mr. Smith can answer, I don't burden the fellow by tossing the ball back to him. I go ask Mr. Smith, and then I go back and tell the customer.

[gachnar]

Originally posted by Libertarian
Oy vey, I do want to address this, though. Briefly.
I'm in no position to tell you how to do your job. But in my job, when a customer has a question that I know Mr. Smith can answer, I don't burden the fellow by tossing the ball back to him. I go ask Mr. Smith, and then I go back and tell the customer.

In my job, I would tell the person to talk to my supervisor. I dont have the authority to release that kind of information. I can tell people about what the current situation is, but not what it will be. There are several ways of handling a situation. Just because you pick a different way than Firaxis doesn't mean they are wrong. Ignoring that, I usually like a bit more respect from customers than you have shown toward Firaxis.