My Conclusions about the Firaxis-Community relations

[Hoek]

I haven't posted on the Civ 3 forum in a while because I found myself just running in circles. Every threat I posted on turned into an argument about the merits (or lack thereof) of Firaxis. I would get offended at not having a question answered or something, and would spend a long time rehashing the same arguments again and again. I see know that guys like Libertarian, who was actually my main opponent in these arguments, now sees it like I did. Instead of getting frustrated, I realize now, perhaps people should just chill and be patient. It's clear that Civ 3 did not live up to many of our expectations, and we don't get all of our questions answered, but it's not a big deal in the end. We shouldn't take these things personally and just realize that, after all, it is just a game, and after all, these are just gaming companies with humans running them. It is useless and stressful to get upset if you don't get a question answered or Firaxis won't tell you about a feature you're interested in. Just be patient and see what happens. I have not bought the game yet, but there is no sense in getting impatient about it. I'm just going to wait and see if the problems we brought up are addressed, and if not, I won't buy it--it's not a big deal in the end.

[Libertarian]

That's pretty much the place I've come to. I'm in sort of a numb who-gives-a-dookey phase right now. Nice to hear from you again, Hoek.

[Hoek]

In the suuuuuun maaaaaaaaary maaaaaaaaary marrrrrrried burrrrriiiiieeeeed,yeah yeah yeah yeah

sorry, i'm listening to Nirvana

Yeah, I just couldn't spend all that time saying the same thing over and over again. You had two kinds of people: people who spent all their time defending Firaxis and people who spent all their time criticizing Firaxis. Its just not worth all that time and energy, ya know?

[dissent]

I think a lot of people, including Libertarian, are upset with Fireaxis not because of the game's quality, but because of their silence on certain issues. I know it bothers me that they'll answer questions about Corruption and whatever, but have yet to acknowledge that players want Stacked Movement, along with many other issues.

Any sort of response would probably suffice for me. Even if they said 'We realize you all want Stacked Movement, but we chose not to include it because (insert reason)" or if they just let us know whether it is a possibility in the future. I don't care whether I LIKE the answer, I just want one, and I think many other players feel the same way. If they're going to respond to some issues which are important to players, they should respond to others as well.

Fireaxis: I LOVE THE GAME and play it all the time.

but ...

Fireaxis: If you address some things, but not others, I will eventually find another game that treats the players better (already leaning towards CTP2 or Empire Earth). I get the impression I am not speaking just for myself here.

[Libertarian]

That's about the size of it. The wall of silence is ominous and frankly weird. It leaves us wallowing in ignorance.

And I hate ignorance.

[Redstar]

they already mentioned stack

"13-12-2001 20:54

...whatever, but have yet to acknowledge that players want Stacked Movement, along with many other issues..."

vs firaxis'...

" 13-12-2001 17:13




Jeff would probably be your man. However, if you've read some of my pre-patch posts, it's highly doubtful we'll make a statement about any features until we are 100% sure the feature will be added or not. A more likely response is going to be "thanks, we know you want stacked combat [he changed that to movement] and we'll take that into consideration."

I think we've learned our lesson as far as speculating about potential features before we're sure they'll make it into a product or not.

Dan
"

notice the time stamp. hehe

[Dan Magaha FIRAXIS]

Lib,

It should be fairly obvious that we've been burned before when we've talked about things that we hoped to do but were ultimately unable to. I believe that has a lot to do with the way we deal with uncertainty now: we really prefer not to comment on something until it becomes certain.

For better or worse, a lot of people interpret "maybe" to mean "yes", and then expectations quickly get set. As I'm sure you're aware, for some, unmet expectations can lead to anger, and bitterness, and this just generally creates a bad situation that we'd rather avoid.

Dan

[Libertarian]

Dan,

I think the decision to avoid commitment — or even the appearance of commitment — to something that you aren't sure you can do is a wise one. Certainly, I can understand that a lot of people might misinterpret a maybe to be a yes. They get their hopes up, and then they become angry when they think you've renegged.

That said, I don't think that what you've decided to do in lieu of saying maybe is wise at all. You've decided to ignore people, and rest assured that nothing will piss off more people than that.

I believe that there is yet another way that you can deal with people that does not commit you to make promises and that does not alienate.

Take, for example, the groundswell of people clamoring for some relief from late-game tedium. Clearly, promising group movement is not the right thing to do if your developers haven't yet determined whether they can. But honestly, turning a deaf ear is even worse. Consider these example responses to this issue:

Bad Way

Hey, guys! I don't see why we can't do the stack movement thing. Looks easy enough to me. I'll bring it up in a meeting.

Worse Way

Sorry, can't hear you or see you.

Better Way

Wow! It sure is clear to me that stack movement is something you guys really want bad! I don't know whether that's something we can do or not, so no promises. But rest assured that we have heard you! Please keep those kinds of ideas coming! Thanks!

-----

Would you agree?

Lib

[Dan Magaha FIRAXIS]

Lib,

I agree with you in theory, but in practice, even your "better way" gets people's expectation levels rising. It's something I've seen time and time again here and other forums.

In a perfect world, perhaps there would be free, frank, unfettered communication between game developers and fans, but history has proven that notion to be fraught with peril.


Dan

[Barnacle Bill]

Originally posted by Dan Magaha FIRAXIS
Lib,

It should be fairly obvious that we've been burned before when we've talked about things that we hoped to do but were ultimately unable to. I believe that has a lot to do with the way we deal with uncertainty now: we really prefer not to comment on something until it becomes certain.

For better or worse, a lot of people interpret "maybe" to mean "yes", and then expectations quickly get set. As I'm sure you're aware, for some, unmet expectations can lead to anger, and bitterness, and this just generally creates a bad situation that we'd rather avoid.

Dan

Hey, Dan...

That leads right into something which I've been wanting an answer to.

The following is a quote from the official CivIII website, "ASK THE CIV TEAM - 01/19/01 EDITION":

There has also been some concern that because we are showing animated units on the website, scenario creators will be forced to learn 3D animation programs in order to create units; we can safely say that's not the case. Scenario authors who want to create and use animated units will certainly be able to, but those who wish to use Civ II style single-frame units will be able to do so.

OK, that doesn't sound like "maybe" to me. So, here are the questions:

1) Is this possible today?
2) If the answer to #1 is yes, how (it doesn't seem to be documented in the manual or readme)?
3) If the answer to #1 is no, will it be possible in the final "now the editor is as done as its gonna get" version?
4) If the answer to #1 & #3 are both no, why not (keeping in mind that the above quote cannot reasonably be interpreted as "maybe")?

[Dan Magaha FIRAXIS]

Bill,

If I'm not careful I may actually break my own rules here and start speculating

The basic gist of that answer (and what our thinking was) is that given some FLC-making tools, a mod maker could use a single image to create single-frame FLCs. This way the game graphics engine wouldn't need to be modified to deal with static images, and modders wouldn't be forced to do animations if they didn't want to.

So the only missing piece of this puzzle is our FLC-making tool, which is frankly pretty rough around the edges right now. The only reason we haven't released it yet is because it's not the most user-friendly piece of software. It was written years ago by a former employee and it tends to crash if you click where you shouldn't, that sort of thing. I *THINK* we still intend to clean the program up and release it (see, now you went and made me speculate ) but I'm not sure when.

Luckily, using Moenir's FLICSter program, you can do FLC's right now, including single-frame FLCs.

Dan

[Deornwulf]

To Dan with Respect

Would it be possible to get some definitive "NO! No way, not now, not ever!" responses to some of the posts. I personally would like some feedback, even negative, on what I have posted under the advanced governments thread. I know that it might then spark "but why not?" responses but those would replace the venom being spat out about the general silence.

BTW - I am enjoying playing CivIII but just want the series to evolve into the ultimate TBS game for all time.

Deornwulf - The English Teacher

Have a cool yule!

[Barnacle Bill]

Originally posted by Dan Magaha FIRAXIS
Luckily, using Moenir's FLICSter program, you can do FLC's right now, including single-frame FLCs.

It has been written that Civ3 uses a non-standard FLC file format and off-the-shelf graphics programs don't support it. Is that bum dope?

Also, is Moenir's FLICSter program:
1) Freeware/fully functional shareware available on the net
2) Crippleware available on the net but costs <$50 to register
3) A commercial program costing <$50.
4) A commercial program or crippleware costing $50-$100.
5) A professional tool costing big $$$ that casual modders just won't have.

You know, the original quote's "CivII style" pretty much implies (if admittedly doesn't explicitly promise) a file format that common 2D graphics editors do, like GIF, BMP, etc...

[H Tower]

was it too much to ask for scenarios in civ3?

[yin26]

As Lib has already pointed out, there is something called GOOD PR between the "Promise Heaven" and "Ignore You Completely" categories.

Firaxis: Check into it. Good companies do it all the time.