My Conclusions about the Firaxis-Community relations

[Ozymandous]

Originally posted by Hoek
Dan and Lib: what do you think of this idea-use email or private messages for speculative issues. This seems reasonable to me since it wouldn't broadcast tentative plans that could backfire on Firaxis since it would only be an answer to one person. If someone asks "Could you tell me such and such about multiplayer," Dan could ask "could you send me an email or pm" and then answer the question that way. That seems like a good way to smooth things over while respecting Firaxis's need for a bit of secrecy.

Are you really naive enough to think that the FIRST PM or email that someone answered like you suggest would NOT be posted on every fan site within 15 minutes??

I honestly HOPE you are NOT that naive because you're going to be gettiung a rude awakening from the world one day.

Listen, here is how the typical game company works...

1. Games comes out.
2. Company finds the bugs and releases a patch (or two or three or four) to fix the fatal bugs and the problems that totally unbalance the game.
3. Company *might* release more patches that add additional features to the game or might wait to add these issues to an expansion pack if the game sold well.
4. Company moves on to the next game.

That's it. Game companies don't have an obligation to listen to fans for anytihng other than fatal errors and potentially HUGE game unbalancing problems. The game doesn't have to be perfectly balanced just balanced to the point the COMPANY wants it to be. Sure a totally balanced game will attract more people but look at the sales of Diablo2 and you'll easily see a game that can be grossly unbalanced and still sell very well.

I think the majority of the people on Apolyton need to take a step back and learn to accept the fact that you WILL NOT be told everything that is going on and you WILL NOT get everything your way, how you want it, etc. It's that simple. You can complain and moan about how you're not being told every single decision that Firaxis makes but do you know what you'll prove? That you're impatient and immature and can't handle waiting.

Should people post what they'd like to see improved in the game? YES!!!
Should people post problems that have with the game? YES!
Should people ***** and whine because they aren't told every single detail of what will be fixed or patched or changed? NO!!

The amusing thing is that I see a company like Firaxis, who has responded as well as can be expected with as many details as they can, be continually bashed and flamed here on the board, yet a company like Blizzard, who doesn't tell ANYONE what they will or will not do in a patch, regardless of how it may break the game, be held up for adoration.

What's the difference? Is it that the people here at Apolyton *expect*, no, *DEMAND* more than the 10,20 or 50+ hours they have had fun with the game, all for their measly $50? I think so.

Tell you what people, why don't you learn patience and tolerance and keep offering suggestions that Firaxis can use. You will get MUCH more help and cooperation this way. For those who want Firaxis to tell every single detail, well, they did that before and got it thrown right back in their faces, why should they do that again??

Oh, and for those who will call me a blind Firaxis "fanboy", well you're wrong. There are things I wish were in the game, but I am also content to wait and see what they do in the future. Too bad so many others can't get past the "instant gratification" phase of their development on the way to maturity to be able to wait as well.

[Ozymandous]

Originally posted by Libertarian

Firaxis has settled on a rather Neanderthal method of dealing with fan's questions, a method that turns them into detractors. It's all just so... bizarre.

Hmm, Neanderthal method? By not answering what they said they won't or can't answer and not caving in to the pompous asses who like to think the Civ world revolves around them and their posts on this board??

Seems like Firaxis handles things rather well. The last major gaffe they committed was to not officially say they couldn't include multiplayer untilk the game was near release. Other than they they have done the RIGHT thing by ignoring all the self-inflated ego's running around the board here *demanding* they answer to this or that.

[Ozymandous]

Originally posted by Hoek
Yin: but why are you so impatient? I doubt that anyone on the Civ 3 forums does not know where you stand on Firaxis and Civ 3. You have made your points clear, now you're just saying the same thing again and again. Can't you just take a rest and wait to see what Firaxis ends up doing? It won't do a lick of good to keep complaining.

When the ego in reality or larger than the true importance of the poster, you get situations like this.

I've been on webboards for games for years, and usually the greater the ego the louder the clamour for attention and the more strident are the demands for "satisfaction".

[Xentropy]

Warning: Off topic post ahead!

Originally posted by gachnar
Yin: I still dont have any problem with you. As for why so many people apparently do, ... well... You're highly visible. Like the George W Bush. But smarter and poorer. For some people this makes you an easy target, for others (of which I am a subset) it means that you are a worthy debate opponent (ie: I can have intelligent debates with you, You actually think, etc) In short: People "dislike" you because you respond. There are a lot of other posters who I have been very annoyed with, but I dont even know their names, because they dont respond.

I find your comments ironic, because my main problem with yin is that he is *not* a worthy debate opponent. He utilizes slippery slope, circular logic, and thinks the opinions he posts are facts. He may be more intelligent than the average poster, but he chooses to specifically ignore his intelligence when it comes to certain things. He has to make sure, in his own head at least, that he is a winner, and so frequently types things that appear extremely stupid.

(e.g. He has stated, in no uncertain terms, that the sentence, "Civ3 is a dull game," is a fact instead of an opinion. Given many people on this forum disagree with that statement, it is clearly an opinion. But since it's HIS opinion, it's a "fact" in his world. This kind of thing doesn't scream intelligence, even if his general vocabulary and grammar show otherwise.)

Many people fall into the same traps. I don't fault him for that. But until he reads his own posts objectively and recognizes his own circular logic, I refuse to respond to his posts any longer.

Venger, Libertarian, and other Firaxis detractors are a completely different story. While I don't agree with some of their comments, I do respect their comments, because they're focused on opinions and reasons, and realize those opinions are not facts. They are far more courteous to those who disagree with them, and therefore I am more courteous to them.

yin could learn a few things from his allies. Unfortunately, he's too caught up in his own righteousness to admit he has any lessons left to learn at all.

[Ozymandous]

Originally posted by Libertarian
But what, exactly, are they working on? What have they even considered? Have they heard our requests? Are they bogged down thoroughly in their OS problems to the exclusion of all else? Will the next patch be simply a fix for the few with this problem?

You'll find out when you read the patch read-me. Patience is a virtue grasshopper, you might want to try developing some.

Do they have any understanding at all how tedious the late game is? Do they acknowledge that this problem exists? Has not anyone at Firaxis ever played into the modern age and thought to himself, 'Damnation! This is tedious!'?

Do you really think that after all the hundreds of whine, posts and complaints they don't have an idea that people want stacked movement, etc? Tell you what, if they had simply ignored the air superiority bug in favor of adding stacked movement would you have been happier?

How about the novel concept that they are working on isses in the order they think is most pressing, like bugs in the actual game and design features that didn't work as well as they wanted, like people "palace bouncing"? Maybe they want to get the game as tuned as possible in it's current state before adding new features, have you ever thought of that?

Keeping silent is a bad strategy, in my opinion. But what they are doing is worse than that. They are leaving hit-and-run posts like those in this thread that address nothing other than defense of their own myopic policy. They are leaving hit-and-run threads like the one that says that it is the place to post issues and bugs. In other words, they are being silent about things that matter to us, but are quite vocal about irrelevancies.

Depending on whose opinion you ask for I am sure that NO aspect of the game would irrelevant to everyone. They are working on everything when they can. Did you miss the whole post from Jeff the other day where he said the patch had been sent to be tested and they wouldn't or couldn't post what it may fix or change because the patch might not make it through testing??

Hmm, so essentially you want to be CCed in on all the email the developers in Firaxis send so you know the intimate details of what's going on? Sorry, that doesn't happen. And they do post replies in response to this selfish and narrow minded post because they DO care about what people think. Maybe more people will mature enough to realize they need to wait a little and things will work out better.

Their staff is limited. Their time is limited. But they have to make those same sort of "interesting decisions" that we make when we play Sid's games. They need to strike a balance. By spending nearly all their time working on God only knows what and ignoring us like we are unworthy of the most common decencies, they might well find that, down the road, when they finally put out a perfect game and seek to gloat in our admiration, we all shrug our shoulders in unison, and go 'Who cares? We've found something else.'.

Hmm, so you're saying they should spend all the time to cruise the webboards and talk to fans instead of working on the next patch, right? Since you'd rather they responded back instead of using that time to implement things. Yeah, that's a good idea.

How about this... Would you rather they spent all their time implementing one tiny feature that could be done, just complex, or spend their time fixing or tweaking 5 other things. WHich would be better, fixing or adding the one thing the most people *****ed about or fixing a lot of other things that people didn't like as well?

As far as people moving on, well, if they move on that's their choice, but you should know that threats accomplish very little. People play a game, get tired and then move on, that's how the game industry works. Maybe if more of the folks here played other games and dealt with other companies they would get a little more experience and quit whinning so much.

One can hope.

[Ozymandous]

Originally posted by Havak

Its become clear from these forums that whilst some posters love the game (and all power to them for that) there's a lot of us that feel it's not quite (use your own definition of quite here) what it should have been, and indeed can be frustrating and a fun killer. You can bet that if Civ community vets are feeling that then there's a lot of Joe public out there who are not going to like this game once they have bought it?

And you can also bet that a lot of the "vets" hate that their tried and true strategies don't work, or hate the fact they now have to modify their playing style because the game is different enough from Civ and Civ2 to warrant it.

Does this mean the game is bad? No, I know quite a few "vet" players here who love it and also some of the best all-around power gamers who like it. COntrary to what may be believed I think the good opinions outweigh the negative opinions, but that's just me.

So what do others think about that? Am I just a cynic at heart?

You have my thoughts, and yes you are a cynic.

[Ozymandous]

Originally posted by Havak
I should point out I haven't done this proactively. If a friend asks me for my opinion of the game then I will tell them that I'm still pluggin at it but have yet to "find the fun".

Now where have I heard that before?

I bet if you let your friends play the game, those who haven't obsessed over what they think they game will be, I bet they would like it. I know I have swhon the game to both power gamer and casual gamers both and they all like it enough to play it regularly.

[Ozymandous]

Originally posted by CharlesUFarley
Havak, sales will climb when they please their fans. And right now the negative word is spreading, and eventually it *will* affect sales. Heck, we've been telling them how to improve the game for the last 5 years, and they obviously haven't listened to us... because Civ3 is nowhere near what the fans have asked for. Seems to me that Civ3 had only one perpose, $$$. But they have to be outta their minds if they think they'll profit without fans.

Charles.

Hmm, maybe some fan's are as naoorw-sighted as you and some of us actually look at this as the same type game but with slightly different rules. Seems to me there is a lot more positive feedback than negative, at least off this website and from those who aren't as naive to think that their every wish will be granted...

Regarding how negative fan support will hurt a games sales. Remember Diablo? Ever heard of Diablo2? That game was in design and development for over three years and still came out broken. Most of the "hard-core" fans thought it was a joke but some still played and had fun with how the game WAS and not HOW THEY WANTED IT TO BE. Oh yeah and that game sold over 2 million copies.

Moral: Just because you, "Joe Blow" don't like the game doesn't mean that the "silent majority" won't or don't.

[Ozymandous]

Originally posted by Libertarian


As far as I'm concerned, posts that evade the questions don't count anyway. The only response so far to group movement was a resounding "it's not my job". That's no response at all.

lol, so if someone comes to you at work and asks you about marketing or how to fix a PC or anything that you have no clue about, you give them a bunch of lies and act as if you know what you're doing?

Dan isn't a programmer, he's a web guy. Soren and others are the people who would answer most of the questions you want to know about. So tell me, would you rather have the programmers work on patches or here answering your questions? They can't do both with their time, but I guess you'd rather they sit here and BS with you all day???

Again, the disgruntlement and impatience would wane with courteous treatment and a simple expression of genuine interest. If nothing else, they would at least gain allies from people like me; as it stands, they're losing us.

Is that a good corporate strategy?

So Dan actually answering what he can, giving out what information he is allowed to give, etc, isn't a simple expresion of genuine interest?? Are the people at Firaxis obligated to answer ANY fan questions, demands, whine or complaints? HELL NO! Maybe if you quit thinking you were the *only* person that asks a question and realise you're not the center of the world then you'd get the perspective to wait and see how things go. Otherwise all you're doing is showing the size of your ego (have trouble putting on your shirts in the morning?).

If Firaxis didn't give a crap they wouldn't post at all. It would be easy for them to tell Dan to only visit certain, if any, fan sites and to never post on ANY sites except the official one. At least they respond when they can. Why don't you learn a lesson in humility and understand that you're not the ONLY person asking questions but one of hundreds or thousands.

[Ozymandous]

Re: A big joke?

Originally posted by Desert Dog


Dan how can you make an ass out of you and Firaxis by coming out here and making a statement like that. Do you realize we are not all kids on here? We expected a sequel to civ 2 that is not a maybe or a yes situation. You guys instead took the shell of Call To Power 2, placed Civ 3 and Sid's name on it. The problem I have This is a worse version of CTP2 not evening touching the good points of civ 2 or Alpha Centauri for that matter.
Dan you will have to avoid the whole industry. I am waging a compaign to get all the mags to print the truth about civ 3, they are getting ready to call it game of the year! Give me a break this is the most bug ridden game I have seen in my 46 years that is for sure.
I was willing to go along and wait on a patch. The patch comes and it is worse then the first rendition of the game. Now I read you are avoiding what you deem our mistake about "OUR EXPECTATIONS"? Listen you did not test the game you did not even finish the game from I am hearing from my sources. I understand you guys are strapped for cash that you decided to fool us all. Admit that the game is really only 85-90% complete and very little testing was done? I have a very reliable source who says that the guys who wrote CTP2 made civ 3. Hoping Sid's name would sell enough copies and bail it out with a patch later. I am still making sure that what I am hearing is 100% accurate. It seems good enough to call your bluff here. Sorry but I am MAD I spent $70.00 and it is clear this game will NEVER live up to civ 2 only in dumb ass print in mags telling the wrong stories! Not one accurate review of this game yet! Fix the damn game!

Desert Dog

*yawn*

translation:

"Bring back all the broken and flawed game aspects from Civ, Civ2 and SMAC. Give us an easy game where we know all the rules just make it look nicer. We don't want to change we want the sdame game. Just to prove how we want the game game we'll float unfounded rumors thinly disguised as fact just to show you!"

Amusing, but pathetic. Hmm, I wonder how many others, like me, hated Civ2 because the same broken concepts from Civ1 were there and it was nothing more than Civ1 in better clothes?? Apparently not many people who now seem to love the 2 X-pack and multi-patched Civ2.

*plonk*

[Ozymandous]

Originally posted by PN
I would accept, indeed I think I would be pleased, if Firaxis were to put their hands up and say:

• We know that there are these bugs and this is where you can find a comprehensive list
• These old bugs which we said are fixed didn't get fixed really
• Please report any new bugs through this official channel (either Infogrames or a new facility on the official site).
• We acknowledge that there are some stability problems.
• We stand by/withdraw the 1.16 patch (delete as applicable).
• As a result we need to go away, stop talking to you for a while about new features and sort these problems out first.

What I feel is needed is a new baseline code release from which to move forwards. (And capturing new bug reports through these forums is the most inappropriate way to do it.)

For my part, I'm unsure whether or not I should use the 1.16 patch, particularly as (because of a Firaxis post on another thread) I cannot be sure that the bugs that Firaxis say are fixed, really have been fixed at all. [It's the top post where they ask us to say whether the bugs in the readme have been fixed or not.]

Actually the comment in Jeff's post was for people to post problems they could prove weren't fixed with a clean install of Civ3 with a clean install of the correct patch. There is a difference.

I had problems (game crashes) with the incorrect patch but have NO problems with the new patch and indeed, all of the things they said they tweaked seemed to have been tweaked.

As far as incompatibility goes, well that is usually OS or machine specific. If it were a true problem with the game or patch itself (other than the safedisk thing which can be fixed by a non-CD patch from Infogrames) then the game would crash for EVERYONE and not just a few people. Battlecruiser 3000 springs to mind.

[Ozymandous]

This is amusing...

Originally posted by Libertarian
Dan,

In my heart of hearts, I want to believe you. But you have yet even to acknowledge my question — even when I offered it as one of your most ardent supporters. If you don't know, say you don't know, and say it plainly. Here are the questions again for your convenience:

Translation:

"Dan, I was one of your most ardent supporters, but, well, you didn't treat me special, you didn't treat me any better than one of the other 100,000 people who bought the game and sent an email or posted a question so now I hate you and will do all I can to punish you and your company!

"Signed, fiar-weather Fred."

• Does Firaxis understand that some sort of group movement would help alleviate late-game tedium?
• Does Firaxis understand that this is a UNANIMOUS request from the playing community?
• Is Firaxis looking at doing this at all, or is it just not on the list right now?

That's it. Please, straightforward answers. Thanks in advance. [/QUOTE]

Translation:

"Please, please, please answer my questions! I am all antsy with the buring desire and uncontrollable need to know everything even though you have already address me at least twice in this thread and said you have said all you could. Your attention alone isn't enough, you *must* also answer all my questions of I will lose hope and heart and be forced (even though I really do like to bash you. ) to bash you some more.

Please, please pay more attention to me so that I won't feel so alone in the world and my life will have meaning. I love you Dan, I really do. ""

[Ozymandous]

Originally posted by Libertarian
Oy vey, I do want to address this, though. Briefly.



I'm in no position to tell you how to do your job. But in my job, when a customer has a question that I know Mr. Smith can answer, I don't burden the fellow by tossing the ball back to him. I go ask Mr. Smith, and then I go back and tell the customer.

Translation:

"Lowly customer service rep: Hold one second sir, I will go walk into the CEO's office, and get that answer for you, he want's us to barge in on him all the time, regardless of how minor or insignificant the question is because we value each and every one of our 200,000 customers."

Yeah, like I really see that happening, lol!!

[XPav]

Ozymandous

[Libertarian]

Ozymandous (sic),

Dan has answered my question. Why don't you take a purge?