Vel Contemplates Mod-Making.....

[David Weldon]

Vel,

There's a very serious pitfal just waiting for you in the modern era that we stumbled across in another thread.

Basically, if you increase the cost of techs, you will dramatically alter the balance of science vs. military in the late game (although it's already pretty much broken). The problem is that if tech costs are increased, then their value relative to military units is also increased. That means that selling techs for cash will allow a huge increase in troops (there's nothing else to "buy", really), and these troops will turn the late game into a war-zone.

Note that even if you modify tech selling, it's quite possible to just ignore science and use the tax revenue to buy units (i.e. it's not the _trading_ that's the problem).

Basically, the cost of units doesn't increase at the same rate as the tax base of a growing empire. The cost of techs is then inflated to keep them from being researched too quickly, and that encourages a 'buy military and capture tech' approach.

A few solutions might be:

- reduce tax revenue by decreasing the governental bonus to trade, decreasing the base trade in various tiles, etc...

- increase the shield cost of later units (starting in late medieval)

- Increase the gold/shield cost. Perhaps as much as 16/8 without/with economics.

I agree that tech costs should be changed, but I think this is one of the most fundamentally important balances in the game, and they should be changed with utmost care. IMO, they are poorly balanced right now (too expensive, too much trade generated as compared to rush costs of military).

If you're interested we could discuss the various growth rates of a "normal" empire. I've already done some preliminary research, but it's based on a _lot_ of assumptions. This is probably such an important and difficult issue as to warrant it's own thread (balance of improvement cost vs. unit cost vs. tech cost vs. population growth vs. tax base growth vs. territory growth).

[Velociryx]

Outstanding point! (and admittedly, one that I hadn't given much thought to till you said something!)

Sounds good to take that part of the discussion to a different thread....perhaps your on Inflation in the strat section?

-=Vel=-

[aziyan]

I believe upgrading should not be avaiable by paying money. What can be done is to give half of the shields back when a unit disbanded so that it can be upgraded with shields to any units. Leonardo's workshop may give three quarters of the original shields back when disbanded.
Only problem with this is the shields can also be used for buildings. I don't know if there is a way to disable this in the editor.(Like no bonuses for wonders)
AZiyan

[Sevorak]

All right Vel, I've started to assemble this together into a .bic file, some observations:

For graphics, look no further than your own hard drive. Civ3 includes in its /Art folder a file called resource.pcx. This file is different from resources.pcx, the file used for the actual graphics of the in-game resources. These can be cut and pasted with an appropriate pcx-editing program. Anyway, at 2,2 there is a fairly good graphic for "fruit" to be placed in Jungles. At 1,2 is a symbol that could be used for salt flats. At 8,11 is a symbol that could do for an Oasis in a pinch. Sure, it could be better, but don't get all too worked up about graphics just yet. A tundra mineral enhancement could be silver or lead, and use any one of the bar/block of metal graphics along the first and second rows. I'd rather classify Oasis as more of a +2 food/+1 commerce thing, since a city uses an oasis more for the food than for anything else. The real problem, as in Civ 2, is to deal with the fact that mining an Oasis ends up to be the best way to use it

Specialists: the reason I put it at 4 initially was because a working citizen in the mid to late game, after railroads, produces at minimum four FOPs off a worked square, those being Deserts, mined Tundra, and roaded Forests. The overwhelming majority of terrain produces 5 FOPs, so I figured that putting it at 4 was not too overpowering - useful enough to have a specialist or too, but just short of being an actual extra laboring citizen. 3 struck me as a little low - might as well dole the food tile off to another city, then, if every citizen is only going to give you a +1 net return. Actually, there wouldn't be a bad argument for 5 based on the fact that 6 FOP terrain is pretty much the standard in Republic or Democracy, but I think 5 would be pushing it, since then you'd effectively be arguing based on the benefits of Rep or Dem which can be used in any governmental form. Anyway, there's my argument for 4 per specialist.

Research rate can be set to a minimum of one, but you get the idea. It works. With the addition of new techs, however, I'd argue that the late game techs do not need to be increased in price, especially with at least four new 300+ cost modern techs coming in.

Another idea. In the initial testing of my mod, I set max research time to 100 (effectively no max) and slashed tech rate in half for each map size. This resulted in truly significant scientific research for all sides...literally EVERY bit of commerce counts in the early game, the difference between Bronze Working in 27 or 54 turns, and to me acted as a strong disincentive to build settlers since the pop hit could be felt in science repercussions for a while afterwards. This is also a powerful disincentive for pop rushing, especially since you can't count on a tech every 40 turns. If this were to be incorporated, what I'd advocate would be low Tech Rate settings, with beaker costs for modern techs reaching into the 600 range. The entire researching-at-minimum thing bothers me, especially since it punishes civs for building up cities - several 3-4 size cities under the current environment only represent 7-8 turns of tech advantage, if that, while the settler builder gets twice the number of cities, set up for later success. All the tech costs would need extensive looking-at, of course, but that's not necessarily a problem. Linked to this would be a ramp-up in the cost of units, as David Weldon just pointed out, that would have to be necessarily tied to any increase in the cost of tech.

As for the military units and ZOC, a fascinating idea just occurred to me for a virtual unit special ability. Disclaimer: I'm not sure if this works. Imagine a unit you want to give the defensive-artillery free shot against attackers, but don't want to give the ability to blow up terrain improvements and kill population (say, longbowmen). What if that unit gets given a bombard value, a rate of fire and the bombard ability, with the range set to 0? Since the unit can pillage anyway, it doesn't get a bonus from being able to bombard its own square, and picks up a free-shot special ability when working in a stack. Just an idea.

For now, the zero-resource units are by necessity going to have to use existing units' FLC files. I can't do that, might want to commission BlueO considering his excellent work on the attack helicopter and air transport.

New luxury graphics - the resource.pcx may be useful again, though nothing jumps out at me like it did with the bonus resources.

Government types are easy, just limited in how different we can make them using the editor. Shouldn't go overboard on governments, since in many cases all we'll end up with are effective clones of each other. No sense in making new governments if they don't actually increase strategic choice.

-Sev

[David Weldon]

I have started a thread in the general forum to measure and discuss the growth of various aspects of an empire. My first result only considers units vs. economic strength (i.e. tech cost), but it's a start and I hope that all of you will go on over and contribute so that we end up with much better game balance than Firaxis ever could hope to achieve!

Empire Growth: Survey and Estimation

Since it's tough to modify the growth rate of the economy, we should probably focus on increasing the exchange rate and/or the unit cost so that "buying" units isn't so effective in the late game.

I like the 0 range bombard idea, but it might be an unnecessary complication because we can just increase the defense strength and get a similar effect, can't we?

I _love_ the science trade-off for the early game. That will definitely help the slow growers to compete...

I like the barb idea, especially because it does strengthen Expansionist, but remember that most barbs come from their own villages in the fogged world, not from goody huts. If swordsmen are going too far, how about a new 2/1/1 or 3/1/1 unit for barbs? (maybe a UU so we don't have to create a new unit?)

[Badtz Maru]

OK, I finished my latest mod and have made it available for download here. Let me know if you have any questions or comments.

BTW, I could not post to the Files forum, I'm not sure why.

[Velociryx]

Sev! Thanks for the advance-work on the Mod guy! That's fantastic! And good news re: the graphics as well. The more we can recycle existing stuff, the easier it'll be to put a prototype (version 1.0?) together! WhoooHoooo!!

David, a thought re: costing.

Could we not base mid and late game costing on the shield production of an "optomized" city, taking into account the effect of rails when it becomes available?

For our baseline town, we could assume 1 city, all "rocky" plains, with all plains mined. (netting 2 food and 2 shields pre-rail). So at size six, in the ancient era, said town would produce (with all citizens working 6*2 + 2(city squares are one or two shields?) 14 shields per turn.

A size 12 city with all 12 citizens working that type tile would net you 26 shields per turn pre-rail, and +1 per worked tile for the rails for 38 per turn.

Maximum number of workable tiles is 20, 3 shields a tile post rail for 60 (plus the city tile itself).

Then factor in the 50% effects of factories and power plants.

Based on the final numbers in the late game, and based on our observations of unit construction costs in the ancient era, could we not ballpark what the costs of modern units ought to be?

(ie - if we determine that it takes a size 6 town in ancient times 4 turns to crank out a top of the line unit for that period (swordsmen), could we not then make the assumption that 4-turns construction time for the top of the line infantry unit in the modern era (Mech. Inf) should be the baseline?) - -and increasing the cost of the more exotic units (bombers, ships of the line, tanks) from there? (based on the % increase of effectiveness of the unit in the case of tanks and such, and adding a set premium for the others based on....number of techs to reach that point and overall stats?) Just tossing ideas out here for the moment without really thinking them through, but I figure it'd at least give us a place to begin from, even if the numbers aren't exact.

Yes? No? Maybe?

-=Vel=-

[Thoth]

Originally posted by Velociryx
Barbarian cultures are all armed to the teeth and bada$$. A far higher percentage of the population in Barbarian culture is trained for battle at an early age (esp. compared to a more "civilized" tribe). Right now, with warriors as the prinicple unit, this is not reflected so well when you meet the barbs. Your warriors crush their warriors, as a rule, and unless there's a massive barbarian uprising, they're really more of a nuisance than a genuine threat.

This way though, the early game would be filled with even more of those strategic choices! Do I dare risk popping that goody hut? Ohhhh, the prospect of a new tech could set me light years ahead of the competition, but if it unleashes four swordsmen, then all my border towns are in for it!

OTOH, it's really not so bad even then, since the barbs can't capture towns. Worst case, they rape a few of your units and savage your fledgling treasury, but I think the sight of half a dozen screaming barbarian *swordsmen* bearing down on early game cities would do a lot to get the ol' pulse jumping.

Warriors just don't do it...

Still...if you guys think that's over the top, I'm sure I could be talked out of it....

I agree that Warriors as barbarians are seriously underpowered. However, I think that making the default swordsmen is a little too far in the other direction.

How about 2 new units:

Barbarian Warrior: 2/2/1 (basic Barbarian)

Barbarian Horsemen: 3/2/1 (all as road) (Advanced Barbarian)

This makes goodie hut popping with Warriors much more dangerous, without seriously endangering well protected cities.

[Skanky Burns]

Just one other thing i want to remind you about.
Dont forget to use the "obsoleted by" tags in the editor so that warriors and swordsmen aren't able to be built forever.

I know its an obvious common-sense thing, but if Firaxis missed it...

[Thresh1642]

Vel,

After skimming through the posts and doing some more brainstorming last night, I came up with a few more ideas for the mod. I've done a small mod myself where units are concerned, but the following are technology and improvement ideas, and I am not to keen on using the hacked edit to add them yet. But here they are for everyones consideration:

Resources:
A lot of people think Stone should be a resource. I question this, because stone would be perhaps the most available resource of all (See that mountain range over there? Theres your stone. Build a road to it and mine it.) I think whats needed here is something like a quarry, or stonemasons shop. Make it a ancient era build, neccessary to build other large structures (I.E the pyramids, city walls.) The cost shouldn't be prohibitive.

Tobacco
This should be a middle agewonder, available after Agricultural engineering (a technology I'll discuss later). There shoud be a large trade bonus for this, and a small cultural bonus as well. However, once the discovery of Computers (and Research Labs) the bonus should go away (The Surgeon General Warnings come into effect). Available in Grasslands and plains only.

Cotton
Available after agricultural engineering (?). Trade and Cultural bonus, and happiness bonus. A mill (or a small wonder such as McCormicks reaper) would give and even bigger bonus. Available in grasslands, plains.


Technology advances
Stirrup, and ancient age advance. Needs Iron working and Horseback riding as prerequisites. Shouldn't be an expensive technology, but neccessary to move to the middle ages. After this I'm not sure which direction to go. Do you give horseman a movement of 1 and increase it to 2 (or keep the base as 2 and increase it to 3)? Or do you create a new mounted unit (The Horse Archer, with an A/D/M of 3/1/2, essentially giving everyone a mounted Warrior and come up with a new Iroqouis UU (such as Light Cav)).

Husbandry, an Ancient advance. One of the first available, and a prerequiste for horseback riding. A Food bonus is given.

Agricultural Engineering, A middle age wonder. Make engineering a prerequisite (?), or education (?). Farmers learn that large scale field rotation keeps the land available for growing longer. Also first large scale attempts at fertilization methods and controlled crop mutations (theres a word for this, I just can't remember it) begin. Also makes the Mill improvement available.

Hullmaking, a middle age wonder. Prerequisites of Engineering and Education (list after astronomy in chart). Makes the Galleon unit available, and the Magellan Wonder available as well. Allows Shipyards to be built. Allows Navigation. Hullmaking was a step forward in building ships that were ocean worthy. Once nations larned how to build a better, more efficient hull, exploration really began to take off.

Synthetics, an Industrial Age wonder. Requires Scientific Method and Electricity, allows Replacement Parts. Allows Rubber to be artificially produced with the completion of a Rubber Factory (is there another name for this?). Mass Production wasn't fully realized until easier (and cheaper) sources of Rubber (for tires and hoses amongst other things) were used.

Television, a Industrial/Modern age wonder. Prerequisite of Radio, allows computers. Once discovered, the civ gets a happiness bonus (and perhaps more bonus's if the city has a coloseum). Also allows the construction of the Movieland Small wonder (Modern Hollywood).

Wonders
The Pentagon should be renamed to Militray Academy. Every modern Civ has at least one Military Academy (The French have St. Cyr, the English have Sandhurst).

Movieland, a Small Wonder. With the advent of Radio and TV, entertainment becomes an integral part of everyday lifestyle. Movieland is the place where dreams are made, heros are born, and everyone goes to be a star. A Nice cultural Bonus should be associated with this.

City Improvments
Shipyards require a harbor to be built. Once completed they give an additional +1 food per coastal sqaure. Available after hullmaking. A shipyard is required to build Galleons. Cost: 80

Mill is available after Agricultural Engineering. It allows the mass production of textiles to begin. A luxury bonus and cultural bonus should be considered for this improvement, and it should also cause soem pollution.

Theater is available with Free Artistry. Cost 100. Makes 1 unhappy person in the city it is built in content.

Rubber Factory. Cost 160. Causes Pollution. Allows Rubber to be produced synthetically. (A Side note: I think for every two/three factories built rubber should appear in the STrategic Resource box. Once two rubber resources are available, one may be traded. Is this i workable idea?)



Well, thats it for now. Comments are always appreciated.

Thresh

[Thresh1642]

Figures, I get my post done then realize I screwed my notes up.

One the renaming the Pentagon part, I think the following needs to happen: It needs to be re-named the War Department (OR Department of Defense for you paecniks out there

In order to build it you must have discovered radio. This is because modern (Post Napoleonic) large troop formations require effective communication to act as a cohesive whole, and I don't think adding in Telegraph as a technology is necessary. Truly large army formations were not possible until Radio (witness the large armies of WW1). Radio allowed commanders to stay in touch with more troops for longer Periods of time, and regardless of how many armies you have in the field, you should be able to build this wonder (Perhaps lower the cost as well?)

OK, that might be it

Thresh

[Velociryx]

That's what I like about this thread....every time I come back to it, there's always a wealth of excellent ideas here! Thoth, I LOVE the idea of custom Barb units! That would truly rock!

Thresh....your comments are all excellent and well thought out, and I must say that the tobacco one (surgeon general's warning) got a late-nite chuckle... Excellent work!

I'll be mulling everything over and seeing how it all fits together, and updating the "What's in the Mod" post early in the week (prolly won't be able to do it tomorrow...domestic duties calleth...::sigh:: )

Also....to update everyone, I DO have an offer from an artistic-minded Civver to design some custom graphics for us, and that, combined with Sev's work on putting the puzzle pieces together, I think we'll soon be in business!

Tomorrow, I'll do some serious thinking about exactly what new techs to incorporate, and just where they should fall, and try to flesh out the new government types to see what we've got (and make sure they're all different enough from each other and the existing ones to give us a wider array of STRATEGIC choice!).

Ideas for minor/major wonders out there? I'm not looking for anything overpowering, but what I'm thinking of in particular is perhaps making a few dead-end branches of the tech tree, and populating those with:

Corruption-busting wonders/small wonders
Early espionage stuff
Unique military units
and....??

-=Vel=-

[Zeb_Fisher]

One Idea I've been toying with is having culture specific advances. The way you would do this is to create a tech called: "European Culture", "Asian Culture", etc.. then for any of the advances you want to be culture specific, you set a prerequisite to "Asian Culture".

This would make a difference in the beginning of the game or for games where civs are somewhat isolated ... it would make an even bigger difference if you could actually set starting locations!!

Anyway, what do you all think?

Zeb

[Thresh1642]

OK, after doing some research:

Stirrup should come after horseback riding. People were riding horses long before stirrups, they just happened to sya stay on longer after Stirrups. Stirrup should be a prereq for Chivalry IMO.
This also now alleviates the need for a new Iroquois UU.

Synthetics should require scientific methos and Refining, and allow replacment parts.

And, paratroopers should be availabler at flight. However, with the Discovery of Rocketry, their range should increase, from 6 to 10 (Jet transports fly farther than prop transports).

Thanks all
Thresh

[SithUK]

Vel: I had stopped playing Civ3 when the corruption made my empire (bout 30 cities/2continents) unplayable. I ended play trying to reposition my palace and FP. About 1000 turns or there abouts to complete. I think you can understand why I stopped play =)

Well I have subsequently re-visited Civ3 and that game after editing the bic file to make Palace and FP cost 1. Corruption is now around abouts what it was in Civ2 (except unlike civ far flung cities will be unuseable, ain't tried it though). Needless to say I'm loving it! I have a Palace on my home continent and a FP on the other. Problem is what if I want to expand/conquer another continent/area....

My suggestion would make s'thing along the lines of a 'Regional Governmental Office.' They would have the same corruption busting effects as a FP/palace except cost VERY VERY little to setup.

I'm not sure if you can introduce this idea unless you stuff the dead end techs with Foreign Palace1, FP2, FP3 etc which is, I'm sure you'll agree, a very unsatisfactory solution.

Any ideas?

Cheers
Sith