Vel Contemplates Mod-Making.....

[Mokael]

just idea about stone-as-a-resource. What if instead of stone we use something like lime-stone, or marble? It could be a required resource for some important buildings like temple and library, or may be even some of the happiness-cultural wonders like Pyramids, Hanging Gardens, and so on. And even Palace upgrade can be tight to this resource (no palace upgrade until resource secured)


just some crazy ideas your way ...

[David Weldon]

Vel:
Your thoughts on unit cost are pretty much where I'm heading as well. There are a few other factors that I think should be considered:

-In the late game, an empire occupies more territory, so more defensive units are needed to get the same result as in the early game. Probably just the expanding border can be used, as I doubt most people would garrison every city in their interior unless they're pop-rushing or something. On the other hand, an expanding empire means more cities (although corruption factors in), so the extra # of production centers will partially cancel the extra # of units required.

-The "larger empire" effect also applies to offensive units, however, RR, faster workers, and faster ships make offensive units more mobile. In addition, since the objectives of an offensive don't necessarily expand in proportion to the target's empire size, I think the "effective #" of offensive units should be scaled by less than the "effective #" of defensive units.

Let's Throw out some initial numbers:

Ancient Age production: 14
Medieval Age production: 26
Industrial Age production:32*1.5 = 48(early)
Industrial Age Production: 62*1.5=91(late).
Modern Age production:120 (Modern Armor Rock, so let's assume the worst).

Effective Ancient Age off/def force: 5 Horsemen / 8 spearmen
Effective Medieval Age force: 8 knights / 20 musketmen
Effective Industrial Age (early): 10 Cavalry / 25 riflemen
Effective Industrial Age (late): 15 tanks / 25 Infantry
Effective Modern Age force: 15 Modern Armor / 30 Mechanized Infantry

Effective # of Ancient Prod. Centers: 3
Effective # of Medieval Prod. Centers: 6
Effective # of early Ind. Prod. Centers: 8
Effective # of late Ind. Prod. Centers: 11
Effective # of Modern Prod. Centers: 14

I would assume that artillery scale about like the offensive units, because if they're used defensively, they're probably part of a RR mobile defense force.

To keep the same relative production time, unit cost =
(new prod/oldprod)*(# old units/# new #)*(# new centers/# old centers).
So:

Knight = 2.32 * Horseman =70.
Cavalry = 4.57 * Horseman = 137.
Tank = 7.92 * Horseman = 238.
Modern Armor = 13.3 * Horseman = 399.

Musketman = 1.48 * spearman = 30.
Rifelman = 3.8 * spearman = 76.
Infantry = 7.62 * spearman =152.
Mech. Infantry = 10.66 * spearman = 213.

Obviously these numbers are big. I also think they're more in line with the empire's economic strength, and they definitely would reduce the impact of buying/selling advanced tech because the gold wouldn't go as far. We would have to tweak them to take into account the individual stats of each unit, of course, and city improvement and wonder costs would have to be scaled somewhat in order to prevent everyone from simply building everything before making any units.

Different numbers could be used. Specifically, the # of production centers is perhaps too inflated. I was assuming a total empire-wide production equal to that many of the maxed-out production cities. The problem is that empire-wide production can't be conglomerated, so instead of 11 cities producing 91 shields each, there may be more like 4 cities producting 91, 8 cities producing 60, and the rest border towns producing 10-15 at most. (It's worth noting that this creates a nice counter-balancing effect to military conquerors. Sure they get a lot of benefit, and while their total production may be larger than a smaller, "builder" civ, the distribution of their production across many more cities would slow down their reinforcements more than it does now)

The final question is: Do we want to make it so that the construction of an "effective" force takes the same # of turns late as it did early? Or sould relative production speed increase over time (as it does now).

I think we could probably allow some acceleration, but not as much as currently exists... Whatever we choose, I think we should consider changing the gold/shield conversion rate to reduce the impact of having tons of gold.

I had another thought on the conversion rate. In ancient times it's 8:1, and then later it gets smaller (4:1). But Ancient and Medieval units are those which can be most affected by money. It's easy to offer more money and recruit more bodies, but all the money in the world wouldn't have helped Germany or Britain crank out aircraft any faster because their production capability was almost maxed out. I could see keeping the rate constant, or even perhaps making it get _bigger_ over time. This would also allow us to free up "economics" to change into a more useful/interesting tech (move Smith's to something else).

An idea about the FP, can we make it "rushable"? This would eliminate the catch-22 of building it to decrease corruption, but can't build it because of corruption... (maybe we need to make a new non-wonder improvement that "acts as palace"?)

[Thoth]

David: I don't think there is a way to make the FP rushable, the "Reduces Corruption" flag that makes it work is a Small Wonder flag, and can only be turned on if the building is identified as a Small Wonder (and hence unrushable).




Mounted Unit Balancing

There has been some discussion on these boards about the overpowering nature of mounted units. The retreat ability makes them far too powerful. Until a patch corrects this imbalance, we could try the following workaround.

Chariot: 1/1/1 all as road, wheeled
Horsemen: 2/1/1 all as road, wheeled.
Knights: 4/3/1 all as road, wheeled.
Cavalry: 6/3/3 wheeled.

Riflemen, Infantry and Mech Infantry all have their movement rates improved by 1.

This means that while Horsemen and Knights cannot retreat, they still retain a mobility advantage off road. They may no longer climb mountains or slog through jungles.

All Industrial and Modern Units will have the retreat ability vs Ancient/Medieval units, but not vs each other. To prevent a beeline for Military Tradition followed by a cavalry rush, move Military Tradition to the Industrial Ages, and give it the pre-requisite of Nationalism.

Horsemen will likely become scouts and skirmishers (which fits with their historical role) rather than the mainstay of the Ancient army. Knights still remain useful, able to travel quickly through enemy territory and deliver a heavy puch. Longbowmen (I'd suggest giving them a ZOC and increasing defence to 2) and pikemen take on a larger role as their cost/effectiveness ratio with respect to Knights increases.

I'm not 100% sure about not letting Cavalry into Mountains or Jungle. I'm inclined to say "no". I'd prefer to have mounted units take 1hp of damage for each Mountain square they pass through, but there's no way of doing this.

Unique Units

These I'm not sure about, but I think the following is fairly balanced:

Jaguar Warrior: 1/1/1 All as road.
Still very usefull, but no longer a show stopper.

Impis: 1/2/1 all as road

War Chariot: 2/1/1 all as road, wheeled

Mounted Warriors: 3/1/1 all as road, wheeled

Chinese riders: 4/3/2 These now keep the retreat ability.

Samuri: 4/4/1 all as road

War Elephant: 5/3/1 all as road.

Cossack: no changes

Comments?

[gachnar]

Originally posted by Mokael
just idea about stone-as-a-resource. What if instead of stone we use something like lime-stone, or marble? It could be a required resource for some important buildings like temple and library, or may be even some of the happiness-cultural wonders like Pyramids, Hanging Gardens, and so on. And even Palace upgrade can be tight to this resource (no palace upgrade until resource secured)

I have stone as a resource. Its required for The Great Wall and The Pyramid.

I tried making it needed for Temples, Aquaducts and Courthouses. Bad idea. The philosophy that Firaxis seems to have adopted is that lack of strategic resources will cripple your army, but leave you able to defend yourself and with the ability to have a strong economy (and therefore science).

I found that when I tied standard improvements to a strategic resource that too often civs (including mine on occasion) were left without any means of staying alive. It sounds funny, but think: On warlord (i think) the 4th citizen starts out unhappy. This means most cities wont expand beyond 6, their boarders wont expand. And they will have a bit of trouble advancing.

When I did it, I found myself surrounded by castrated civs since I had both stone resources on the continent. They could barely defend themselves. Not very balancing.

[Velociryx]

comments all round:

'morning all! This thread has, once more not disappointed! I went away for a change of scenery/clear my head and take a fresh look at where we are re: the mod, and upon my return, a whole host of interesting ideas! With this kind of attention and creativity pouring into the project, it almost can't help but be a success!

Progress:

I've come several steps closer to making final selections for the new music....now all I need to do is find some cd-rip software to convert the music files to mp3 format.....

Just got some new images this morning from our artistic civver, and I have to say that they look GREAT! When she's all ready to sail, I don't think you guys'll be disappointed!

Decided I was sold on the notion of making specialists worth 4 labs/gold, respectively. We'll start with those values, and if it turns out that it breaks the game by making specialist cities too powerful, we'll tone it down a notch.

Also decided I like the idea of unique barbarian units, so the barbs will get a 2/2/1 unit and a 3/2/2 unit (essentially a swordsman on horseback). This should increase the fear factor of facing a barbarian invasion (especially if you get one of those warnings about a "massive barbarian uprising," since those are, in my experience, always mounted), but not to the point that you're scared to even leave the relative safety of your city. Don't wanna make a firm promise on it yet, but we're thinkin' about giving the barb unique units to boot (attempting my own style of "Mod-PR" here, so I'll tell ya that it's something I've mentioned to the artist....we'll see what shakes out!)

Fast-Units:
My instinct is to hold off on this part for the moment, and finish all the other mod-aspects first. Based on Jeff's thread in the strat section and the multitude of voices that were raised, taking issue with the power of fast units, I'd not be over-surprised if one of the things included in the next patch was some sort of means of addressing the issue....so, I'll do this part last (hedging my bets?) and play a bit of wait and see.

Unit Costing in General:
I like the idea of reversing, or even increasing the money/shield ratio over time. Ancient and Middle-Age units were....well, as David said, very manpower intensive. You get a group of guys, hammer out some armor and stick swords in their hands....there ya go. Instant-brigade.

Especially in the modern era though, the electronic/mechanical parts that go into a tank far, FAR outnumber the manpower element (and this is all the more true of battleships, carriers, etc). Seems to me that if you're going to rush something, it'd be easier to rush a carrier than it would be to find more bodies to fill the suits of armor you have waiting in the wings.....I mean, the people are either on hand or they're not.....a supply of gold isn't going to alter that. OTOH, working your crews in rotating shifts 24/7, it seems like you COULD punch out that latest ship-of-the-line you have the blueprints and construction schematics for pretty quickly.

Here's a thought as well....
What if we made it so that each military unit cost you a point of population? (with late game units like tanks/big ships costing 2 units?) I don't even know if it's possible, but it's something that at least deserves a bit of discussion.

As to the costs themselves....I think you're decidedly on the right track David....will be experimenting with some numbers here at work, but alas, I don't have my civ3 book with me, so I don't have the complete listing of units and their costs....will first hit the net to see if I can find that information, and then bring up Excel and start to play....

Also....
Gachnar makes a good point about requiring buildings to have certain resources as requirements, though I could see it in a few rare cases (Perhaps requiring Insense for one of the Government specific buildings in Theocracy? Oddkin stuff like that).

FP Rushability: What if....
Can we give each civ a Great Leader on start? OTOH, that would give the Expansionists a HUGE advantage....Auto-Pyramids in 4000BC....EEek!

-=Vel=-

[Sevorak]

Vel, if you don't mind e-mailing me, I'd like to see the art to start fitting it in as soon as I can.

As for the mounted units, I really think that doing things like that might be just a bit premature. Let's see what the folks at Firaxis come up with first.

Regarding unit costs: In my own modding attempts, I toyed briefly with uncoupling the power plants (therefore creating a more power = more production kind of thing) and jacking the costs of modern units all the way up. Unfortunately, costs don't graphically display well beyond 1000 shields. Oh well. Not sure if that's going to do much of anything.

BTW, the description of the Nuclear Plant is wrong. Unlike other power plants, the Nuclear Plant functions without a factory present. Its "+150% to factory output" is better represented as "Doubles city production" i.e. the same as the Great Ironworks. I'm poring over the pedia file now, fixing that among other things (like Firaxis' perplexing inability to spell versatile correctly).

A few more suggestions. What about moving Heroic Epic and Sun Tzu's Art of War to Printing Press? Both of those represent books, and books didn't get widely spread until the printing press - plus, it makes Printing Press a non dead-end tech, and also moves Sun Tzu's so you can't get pikes, muskets, cavalry and Sun Tzu's all on the same line. In the same vein, what about moving communications trading to Radio? Yes, I know it's late, but allowing it from Writing just doesn't feel right, at least to me. Comments?

Another thought I had regarding the perfectness of grasslands and plains. Why not cut out the Mine option for both of them? Yes, it's a kind of Civ 2 reversion, but Civ 2 DID have good ideas, after all. When you saw grassland in Civ 2, you thought FOOD, but not production. It also puts more importance on the Plant Forest option in other ways than Uranium farms or limited lumberjacking.

Some more random thoughts.

-Sev

[Rhuarc]

graphics???

Wow!! This mod is just what I have been looking for for Civ3!!! Now, a couple of questions. Would anyone be opposed to putting in some of the graphics mods that have been created up to this point? I know they don't change any of the gameplay issues, but I mean just packaging everything into one mod. For example, Snoopy's graphics, a couple of the city graphics, and the useability graphics really make the game better in my opinion.

Vel, If you would like me to I'd be more than happy to gather a list of the graphics mods currently available that are realistic (not the skanky railroads mod!!) and post a list here to find out which ones people might enjoy having in. I know the graphics aren't that important, but just little things like having Elvis as the domestic advisor I would like to package with the mod!! Just let me know what you think!

[Sevorak]

Rhuarc,

I don't know what Vel thinks, but my personal opinion is that graphical mods are a personal choice and since this mod is a gameplay mod, special graphics should not be forced on people who don't want them. I, for one, think Sn00py's graphics are off-color and pixellated (not slighting anyone who likes them, nor Sn00py for his hard work and effort) and I don't particularly relish Elvis as domestic advisor. Just as one example.

-Sev

[Velociryx]

Inching Closer....

Hey again! I decided to blow off the whole lunch thing today and post in the forums instead! (besides, I got half a leftover pizza in the fridge at home...Mana From Heaven! LOL

Comments/thoughts/notes & stuff

Sev: Once again man....YOU ROCK! Your work on modding the .bic files will see this beast come to life much sooner than I'd have been able to puzzle out some of the details of the editor (ie - adding techs...sheesh....what a baffler that was to my brain!).

Heroic Epic: When I think of this, I think of the Homeric stories of Ancient Greece, and because of this, I'd almost be in favor of making it available even earlier than it is, though I DO agree with your logic re: The Art of War and printing press (widespread adaptation of the tactics and strats of other cultures).

I actually had a similar thought re: Communications, figuring that neighter comm OR tech trading should be allowed prior to the advent of writing, but upon reflection, I thought that perhaps people who played the mod would strangle the life out of me, since early game trading is one of the few ways to get out of the ancient era more quickly. I like the idea of communications trading to radio, but in my head, I liken it more to the leader of one civ giving the leader of another civ my home address, and much of the actual communication in the earlier parts of the game occurring via letters back and forth (and, if on friendly terms, face to face visits).

Grasslands and Plains: Couldn't agree more here. Plains are....well....plains (though a case could be made for allowing mining on those "rocky plains" but I dunno if you can make the distinction or no). True, it further simplifies your terraforming options, but ::shrug:: who the heck ever heard of mass-mining the plains anyways!? One thing....if we do that, we *may* wanna toy with the option of bulking up the shield counts for forests....especially considering that they don't improve with rails....thoughts there?

Rhuarc: Hey man! Glad you're liking the way the mod is shaping up! I'd not mind considering the use of/combining our efforts with the efforts of other modders out there, so long as they know what we're up to and we have their blessing to do it. As to the links TO those mods....sure thing (either here, or PM me) I'll take a look at them, see what they bring to the table change/graphics-wise, and get in touch....howwzat?



-=Vel=-

[David Weldon]

Sev:
If you could fix the civilopedia so that it actually describes the way the game really plays, I would build a monument to you and start a 9/11 relief fund in your name! I can't believe that they did so badly. It's one thing to have small errors or typos that were missed in editing, but entire concepts are simply _wrong_. Arghhh...

I like the idea of delaying communications trading. I basically never explore at all as it is, because I just trade for contact and then trade for territory maps (which are way cheaper than world maps). If we delayed it, there would be a much greater value in exploration. If we wait too long, however, then everyone will have already made contact with everyone else anyway, and there would be _zero_ reason or opportunity to trade contact. How about somewhere around Education (roving scholars) or Electricity (telegraph)? I don't know what the best timing would be.

Rhuarc:
Some Graphics mods would be great. Particularly I like the unit graphics mod that shows their a/d and other stats in the corners of the icon... _very_ helpful to speed up decision making until you've got all the units memorized. As for other graphics mods that replace the "look and feel" of civIII, I would almost prefer them to be in a second mod so that people could change the important gameplay aspects with our mod, and then change all of the graphics stuff only if they want to. I won't cry either way, however...

Vel:
I think you lost me when you started talking about rushing military. At first it seemed like you agreed with me, and then it sounded like "garbledy barble frak lidyth reak". Maybe you could offer a translation?

I'll clarify my position on gold exchange... In the Ancient Age, there's practically no way to use gold for troops because you're either under Despotism or you generate so little gold that with an 8:1 ratio you can't afford to rushbuy any units or improvements. Later in the game the gold supply goes way up, and the rushbuy ratio comes down. All of a sudden your economy in terms of gold/science intake becomes dramatically more important than your production capacity. I don't understand how anyone wages war under communism because I use Democracy to simply buy an entire army within 2 turns of when I research an enabling tech.

Last game I played, I planned ahead, saved some cash, timed production queues, and hit those pinko Chinese with 23 bombers, 17 tanks, and all of my remaining cavalry, artillery, and infantry exactly 3 turns after discovering motorized transport (standard map, about 25 cities in my empire). 6 turns later they had lost 7 cities including their capital, 2 other cities with wonders in them, their entire source of oil, and the border towns that were in the way. Real estate may be location, location, location, but military actions are timing, timing, timing. Rushbuying is just too powerful late in the game.

Were you suggesting that some balancing is needed with regards to poprushing troops as well as rushbuying them? I'm just so confused...

I don't think it would be a good idea to have all military cost population. That would reward sprawling civs with poor development because it would basically make military dependant upon food intake. The builder civ with large perfectionist cities would be totally unable to defend itself.

[Rhuarc]

What I'll do is contact the creators of the graphics mods and ask them if it would be ok for me to combine them into one big mod, then we can offer both mods, a gameplay mod and a graphics mod. People can use either or both, depending on personal preference. Does anyone here have any particular graphics mods they would like to reccomend being put in? Please try to specify who wrote the mod and EXACTLY what the name of it is so it will be easier for me to find! Thanks a lot guys.

[Bill9999]

Sorry I am getting in late in the discussion, but I was having a few issues getting my account activated for the boards...

ANYWAY,

I just wanted to weigh in on a couple of ideas here

Most importantly government types, I feel these are the most underused piece in CivIII, they seem to be an afterthought to the design.

A couple of additional ideas I had were of course fundamentalism, ties to higher culture bonuses as they swallow up new "members" and militaristic bonuses as they often don't play by the same set of "rules" when it comes to warfare.

Another one I have not seen brought up is why not have a late game "utopian" gov't, maybe tied to ??genetics?? that would be just perfect, decreasing corruption to near nothing, and boosting culture out the ying-yang, but severly hampering military production as they don't see the need for a military.

Or how about an ecological based gov't that would give additional food and shield bonuses from unimproved tiles around their cities, UU could automatically pillage enemy land as they strive to make the world "clean."

Along with facism/totalitarianism, constitutional monarchy, and others mentioned, maybe there could be some reason created for getting into governments except for the war weariness factor and the smallish poduction and corruption changes the current choices give...

I am just throwing around ideas here, I am still not completely sure what is possible with the current editing tools we have, as I have just began to toy around in the modding area of the game.

[Velociryx]

More thoughts on rush buying/clarifications:

Essentially, my earlier babelfish post (LOL) was indeed a full agreement of your position. And because there's almost no way to rushbuy via gold in the ancient era, how about the notion of simply reversing the numbers, or leaving it at 8gold/shield as a constant?

The reason I suggested reversing the numbers (4 in the ancient era/8Modern) woiuld be that it would make the possibility of Monarch more of an "interesting choice" relative to the other government forms. True, you can sac. population points to rush under despotism, but at 4g/shield, Monarchy's lower corruption rates begin to look....better....

More thinking about trading communications:
The more I think on it, the more I like the idea of putting *some kind* of delay on it....will pour over the tech tree and come up with something that is in keeping with the overall "flavor" of the mod, and come up with something for us to run tests under to see how it goes? Hand in hand with this, was something I had mentioned earlier re: making the age of sail more interesting by making those ships available sooner. Seems like the two ideas work nicely together, seaworthy vessels becoming available sooner + comm-trading pushed back = more incentive to build those boats?

Or...no?

-=Vel=-
PS: Governments! - I like your post on it Bill, and your timing is good too....that's one of the things I'll be (hopefully!) starting to flesh out this evening! --along with the aforementioned Age of Sail/Communications!

[Skanky Burns]

Re: graphics???

Originally posted by Rhuarc
Vel, If you would like me to I'd be more than happy to gather a list of the graphics mods currently available that are realistic (not the skanky railroads mod!!)

[joking]

*Sniff*
Thats it, im not supporting this anymore!!

[/joking]

Seriously, while a good idea, ive customised my graphics (mostly by downloading other graphic mods ) to suit my tastes. I wouldn't really want to install this mod and have to change my graphics back.

Then again, graphics could be put in as an option for those who dont live on Apolyton to get the most out of this mod.

On that note, see my resource labels - I actually did a serious mod!!

[Velociryx]

Skanky - I shall check it out! Always on the lookout for how things can be done differently/better!

More stuff that's *almost* ready to get the final nod. Look these over and give them a or (or, if it won't work, give it a LOL)

Here goes:

1) New Ancient Era Tech - Diplomacy
Pre-Requisites: Map-Making and Philosophy (Note, since we can't make a tech have two pre-requisites, recommend we get around this by making the "Whale" resource available only after map making....never heard of whaling sans boats anyways! LOL)....in this way, we could make the *actual* (under the hood) requirements for Diplomacy = Philosophy + Whales...looks funny, I know, but it works under the current editor).

Diplomacy then, is the tech that allows for comm trading and the formal establishment of Embassies. How does that sit?

OoO

2) Monarchy - Special Unit: King's Guard: 3/3/1 Infantry (equal in every respect to the Roman UU).

3) New Category of Unit: As a whole, we'll call these guys Mercs. They are classed as barbarians (no civ-specific color) and require a pop-point to produce (which should, unless I am mistaken, mean that the units *also* require no per turn upkeep)

3a) Privateer - Change attack value to three. With the pop-point requirement (if that's possible, no cost increase needed)

3b) Buccaneer - 2/2/1 Foot unit (equal to the newly proposed barb unit - available with Map Making/Galleys)

3c) Highwayman - 3/2/2 Fast Unit - I'd love to include the Stirrups tech, but fear overspending what tech slots we have to work with in the Ancient Era. Would a viable compromise be to make them available at Diplomacy (Diplomacy....at swordpoint?)

OoO

4) Democracy should also come with a city improvement "County Seat" - Reduction of Corruption Price:???? (prolly more than a courthouse, but not much more)

OoO

5) Luxury Item - Insense (only becomes visible with the arrival of Polytheism)

OoO

6) Minor Wonder - Senate (particular to Republic) - Becomes available WITH republic - Corruption buster at or nearly equal in price to FP.

OoO

7) Libraries - moved back to writing on the thinking that there would be SOME PLACE to store written works even before the advent of literature per se....however, the Great Library should remain where it is (this is mostly on the thinking that every non-starting Ancient Era tech should net SOME tangible benefit).


OoO
The Middle Ages:
8) Luxury Items Sugar and Wine become visible with monotheism

OoO

9) Sun Tsu's Art of War - Moved to Printing Press (per above, Sev's post)

OoO

10) New Government - Theocracy: (Available with the advent of Theology). Particulars : (EDIT - Posted the highlights of Moraelin's Theocratic Government here to see what changes might be suggessted - Gives us a starting point, and with his permission, perhaps we can incorporate it as-is if it suits those reading here!)
Max science rate: 50%
Worker rate: 100%
Assimilation rate: 2%
Corruption: minimal
Draft Limit: 2
Max MP: 2
Hurrying Production: Paid Labor (is there a way we can give a discount for certain (religious builds??)
Resistance factors: basically except for Anarchy (-5) and Theocracy (0),
your own people will have a +5 to resist anyone, due to indoctrination,
but then the people from conquered cities will also have +5 to resist YOU.
War Weariness: Low (But not None. "Thou shalt not kill.")
Requires Maintenance
No Standard Trade Bonus
Cost Per Unit: 1
Free units: 1/2/4
Immunity: nothing


10a) Minor Wonder particular to Theocracy: Inquisitor's Hall (allows for early game espionage options) Price????

OoO

11) New Tech - Advanced Hull Design (place "at the root" of the Middle Ages Tech Tree

EDIT: Alternate plan: Make "Advanced Hull Design" have a pre-requisite of Invention. Any thoughts or preference on it?

11a) Luxuries - Rum

11b) Ships (all seaworthy at this point) - Galleon, Frigate, Privateer (doing this part from memory....please correct me if I have the names wrong!)

OoO

12) New Tech - Magna Carta (available after.....Chivalry?) Allows Constitutional Monarchy (stats: currently not fleshed out....a pumped up version of Monarchy) ---> Modernized Monarchy (less corruption, a corruption busting Minor Wonder....what else????

12a) New Minor Wonder (House of Lords) - Busts corruption due to distance Price???


More later, but I'll hit "save" now and see what reactions these bring....

-=Vel=-