Vel Contemplates Mod-Making.....

[Badtz Maru]

I've done a lot of tweaking on my mod (not updated for patch yet), including giving Shakespeare's Theater a civilization-wide happiness effect, giving units an extra HP, making nuclear plants create one unhappy citizen but not require a nearby source of water, giving all civs 3 starting techs, giving ZOC to all ranged-attack units and giving Blitz to a few more units (i.e. the Cossack and the Rider). I'm playing with the base rules currently to see how I like the new patch and because some of my changes were made to address weaknesses I saw in the pre-patched state (like making fighters more useful for bombarding and buffing up submarines considerably). I'll probably make a new mod eventually after I get the feel for what the changes in the new version do.

One thing I'm considering doing is raising the cost of later advances considerably to stretch out the early Industrial ages. I'm thinking that maybe the first new 'required' techs in each age (or maybe the last) should cost twice as much to delay the advance into the new era.

One thing I would really like to do that can't be done with the editor is to allow some Small Wonder traits to be used in regular Improvements. I want to make something with the Forbidden Palace's effect as a second center of the empire that can be built anywhere, albeit with a really high cost and requiring certain improvements to make sure that the city is well developed first.

[Thresh1642]

Unit Tweaks

- Privateers need to be stronger. 3/1/2 at a minimum.
- Naval Movement needs to be increased

In terms of upgrading units, I think the follwoing needs to take place (an example is much easier than trying to describe it):

The AI is building spearmen when it discovers Feudalism. Since the AI has access to an Iron deposit (either by trade or in it's own land) the Spearman build is no longer visible in the queue (thus forcing the AI to build Pikemen). Likewise, when Gunpowder is Discovered, the Pikeman entry will disappear from all cities that have access to Saltpeter. However, should the city in question not be linked to Saltpeter (say it's cut of by invaders) the Pikeman entry would reappear in the queue. Likewise, if that city was also cut of from Iron, the Spearmen entry would reappear.

I don't think there's currently a way to do that now, but I haven't gone that in depth to the Bic file. But I think arbitrarily making certain units obsolete will cause problems with the AI.

Armies should be able to attack more than once if the units in them can attack more than once.

Units should be upgradeable when in Armies.

Units should be able to move in and out of Armies.


Resources


- Should steel be a resource? I think so. I think discovering steel should me that a Steel factory must be built before Battleships and thelikes can be built.

- Banana's should be returned to the jungles.

- Artificial resources. I am not quite sure exactly how long plastics and synthetic rubber have been made, but it seems to me there should be a way (technology wise) to have a synthetic rubber become available.


Wonders

The Apollo wonder is a bit odd. It should be a major wonder, but I can see why firaxis didn't make it onw. However, I do think the first civ that builds the Apollo Wonder should get a bigger culture Bonus (+5). Civs that build an Apollo wonder after the original should still get a +3

An Internet Small Wonder should also exist. It should give a research bonus, but it's cultural Impact should be negligibile.

Global News Network (or GNN). Large or Sall wonder, I am not sure. Prerequisite of Satellite. This wonder should be a two fold wonder: It should give a happiness bonus when the nations is at peace. That bonus should be negligible when the country is at war.



Well, thats all I have for now, seeing as it's late and work calls. I had a list written down somewheres, but I can't seem to find it. If I have nay more suggestions I'll certainly post them.

[Mannamagnus]

I would like to be able to raze a city which joins my civ because they are in awe of my culture.
I hate having to refuse to accept it and then going to war some turns later because it's an obnoxious enclave within my empire.

[Badtz Maru]

Steel is a technology, not a resource, basically a way of treating and refining iron to make it stronger. I do believe it comes way too late in the tech tree, however - metallurgy is the advance that ties in most realistically with the use of steel. They should have called steel 'advanced alloys' or something like that.

Although I believe some units should become obsolete, I don't think pikemen should be made obsolete by musketeers as they both were used at the same era in history, especially in feudal Japan.

The main problem with obsolescence is that many of the advanced forms of prior units require special resources, a civilization that has his spearmen made obsolete by pikemen is screwed if he is lacking iron. I am strongly considering making pikemen not require iron in my game, however, as their primary weapon was basically a really long spear - the pikeman was more of a strategic idea than a technological development, that a well-trained tightly-grouped unit of men with long spears would be very effective against mounted units. I don't see why bronze could not be used for pikemen.

Another unit I have some issues with is the longbowman. In history only one nation used them effectively. Longbowmen required a LOT of training and were too expensive for most nations to field (the only reason England could was they had a class of semi-nobles who could be forced to train regularly). I think longbowmen should be more expensive, and possibly have 2 defense to show how they had a longer range (which would make closing with and attacking them more difficult). Hmm, I just had an even better idea - make them England's unique unit.

[sophist]

Originally posted by Xentropy

Of course, then you'd have to remove one of the five modern age researcher titles to replace it with "Al Gore".

"Sir, Al Gore has invented The Internet! What would you like to work on now?"

I should leave this alone, really I should... but he never said that! Clearly he didn't invent the Internet, but he was heavily involved on the legislative side of the transformation of Arpanet into the Internet. The media took an ambiguous statement and ran with it without paying attention to the actual meaning and facts.

/soapbox

[sophist]

I had some ideas for making the end game less tedious in this thread:

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=35360

I would also like to see a new form of government. Being the geek that I am, I'd be interested in seeing an Internet technology that enables a later government technology for a distributed sort of government, much like the First Distributed Republic or whatever it was called in Neal Stephenson's "The Diamond Age." I believe there was something similar in SMAC, sort of a future version of the republic. I also like the idea of having another civ's people be able to vote for you as UN leader, but given the way that the UN works in reality and the fact that this would require some programming changes, that seems unlikely.

I also agree that the Mfg Plant and Offshore Platform come too late; I don't generally build them because there's no point. Admittedly things are better than in Civ3, where you could also be ruler of the world, but it's still not enough.

[Velociryx]

This is perfect! A regular breeding ground of good, solid ideas! I'm gonna start going through them and compile a consolidated list to see exactly what we've got so all this (currently resembling an amorphous blob...not that that's a bad thing, mind you, just unorganized), into some kind of recognizable shape.

-=Vel=-

[Heliodorus]

I think that resources should be very important, but not critical. Venger and I have discussed elsewhere about the real problem being if the human gets all of a particular resource...*poof* there went the challenge.



I have created duplicate units for all units which require resources, and made them available without the resource but at a higher cost. This simulates the extra effort required to extract the resource from non-ideal locations. In the game, this allows anyone without the resource to build that type of a unit if they're willing to pay the extra cost.

Personally I use a very steep penalty (3x cost) because I like feeling the need to acquire the resource, but this can of course be seasoned to taste... [/QUOTE]

I think that this notion is one of the most critical for a future modification. I LIKE resources, but not having one can be a show-stopper (no coal, no railroad, suddenly you are a 3rd world country). In particular, this aspect needs modification if MP play is ever to be implemented, because I seriously doubt humans are going to give you saltpeter or oil if they want to win by military conquest.

[gachnar]

Originally posted by Velociryx
Still, my basic thinking on the current HP thing is this. As it stands now, there is a flat-rate increase in the capabilities of units as they gain rank. I’d like to vary that a little…[blah]...(though perhaps the HP jump should be reserved for Elite only, in light of Barracks…..more thought needed there).

You mean, kinda like 3/4/5/7? Okay. I'm done know.. I swear.

Any way in the editor to vary this on a “per era” basis

Not that I've seen.

I agree….pyramids are overpowered…..sun tzu’s too, for that matter, and hoover….OTOH, I agree that Shakey’s Theater is underpowered…..anybody know how much freedom we have to mod that stuff??

A decent amount... what were you hoping to do?

ITerrain tiles need addressing. Is it possible to add additional resources AND MAKE THEM WORK in the game? Let’s say I want to make a “junkie” unit. Can I make an “opium” resource and set it as a requirement for the junkie? (no…I was NOT seriously considering that…lol). This would enable us to make jungle/tundra tiles competitive again too…..

Um... I made two new units in a wacky mod I'm using to test stuff: The Guerilla and the Mercenary Guerilla. The Merc Guerilla upgrades to the Guerilla. Both are 4.2.1/all roads. The only difference is that the Guerilla requires Heroine. Yes. You joked about it, I did it. Presumably the heroine funds the Guerillas because they have lower build costs (and upkeep, I think). But it seems as if they "work". The AI seems to know how to use them.

I’ve been considering doing a slight edit on the pricing for units. It likely would not be a huge change….more of a tweak (make swordsmen/horsemen LESS of a good deal, make Musketeers more competitive – Alternate plan re: musket men/musketeers: leave the price alone but give them ZOC, making them the only infantry based unit from that time period with ZOC).

I'm trying just that.

Give every unit with a missile weapon a slight bombard (so it’ll get a freebie shot on incoming attackers). It’d be NICE if we could give Pikemen a freebie shot on incoming cavs, but I don’t see how it’s possible.

I'm trying this out with Archers, Bowman, and Longbowman. Also, in my test-mod (more of a testing ground for real mods) Subs have bombard abilities... sadly, this probably means they can do shore bombardment, but it makes them a little more of a threat at sea. Leave a Battleship without escort, and a sub can bomb you down to 1 HP and take you out pretty easy.

Re: Changing the upgrade path for ancient/middle ages offensive units (swordsmen, horsemen, knights, longbow) – I’m on the fence here. One the one hand, you’re absolutely right….all you gotta do is put a gun in the guy’s hand, and you’re all set, but….I DO rather like the fact that not allowing offensive troops to upgrade into the modern era sets up an opportunity cost for attacking (puts the attacker on a very definite timetable….his army has a shelf life….use it or face obsolescence. Not 100% sure. Convince me?

I have most of these units following a long route to Infantry. So yeah, basically you hand a guy a gun, and tell him to run over there. Even Cavalry upgrades to Infantry. Just like it did in WW2. And then I broke the Infantry to Mech Infantry upgrade path. Mech Inf is powerful = You have to build it yourself. Same with tanks. I also dont like artillery upgrades. I think artillery should have to be built fresh. To easy to capture catapults and upgrade them to Artillery out of nowhere.

Other stuff:
Units in every age that have no resource requirements: Same stats as their resource-requiring counterparts, but with a 50% shield markup (Light Tank, same stats as a tank, no resource requirements—assumes that the civ building it has scrounged around from wherever to pick up the needed materials….but it carries a hefty shield markup). Do that same sort of thing across the board. “Frontiersman” = Musketman without saltpeter, “Partisan Rebel” = Infantry minus the requirements, etc.

I'm looking for names still but here are some changes I made:

Swordsman:
Bronze Swordsman 2.1.1 (No Requirements)
Swordsman 3.2.1 (Iron)
Steel Swordsman 3.3.1 (Iron & Coal)

Musketman:
Mercenary Musketman 4.6.1 (+50% production, No Requirements)
Musketman 4.6.1 (Saltpeter)

AEGIS Cruiser:
Fast Cruiser 9.10.6 (3.1.2) (Uranium)
Missile Cruiser 10.12.5 (4.2.3) (Aluminum)
AEGIS Cruiser 10.12.6 (4.2.3) (Uranium & Aluminum)

I thought about adding:
Knight:
Knight 4.4.2 (Iron & Horses)
Horseless Bastard 3.3.1 (Iron)

Then the upgrade paths are set to select the best unit based on current resource availability

Hey Dan, What happens when you upgrad a unit to a unit with a lower resource cost? Sheild refund? In most of the cases, when you upgrade one of the units above to its resourced equivalent, it should be free.

Thank you to those who have contributed so far! Keep the ideas coming! Discussion is step one….finding people with the skills needed to make it look cool will be step two….step three will be the magic

Welcome? Am I worthy of a 'thank you' yet?

[Velociryx]

Gachnar: Shoot, man....that's worth more than a thank you, c'mon over, I'll buy the brew!

That answers a LOT of questions I had in my mind, especeially re: resources. Cos that means we can add in all sorts of new stuff and make tons of new units that are dependent on resources that don't even exist at present. Very cool stuff!

About wonders and changing them....I'm not sure what I wanna do, precisely, 'cept limit the power of some, and bulk up the power of others.

I really like your unit changes, too! That's good stuff! Are you using the same graphics for the various unit expansions, or are you doing your own?

Other Editor Questions:

Is it possible to change the default values of outputs for terrain tiles (Ie - can I make jungle tiles better?)

Is it possible to add additional resource bonus tiles (could I add "salt flats" to desert, and maybe make them worth one shield??

My head is swimming with all these ideas....I'm lovin' it!

-=Vel=-

PS: LMAO at the "Horseless Bastard" unit....THAT'S tops!

[Nakar Gabab]

We MUST have Horseless Bastards!

...can we also have a Fuel Cell part for those who don't have Uranium for their space ships? Call it the Extremely Polluting Fossil-Fuel-Burning Spaceship Cells?

[Nero Would]

Originally posted by Velociryx
(snip)

Other Editor Questions:

Is it possible to change the default values of outputs for terrain tiles (Ie - can I make jungle tiles better?)

Is it possible to add additional resource bonus tiles (could I add "salt flats" to desert, and maybe make them worth one shield??

(snip)

The editor lets you can change the food, shield and gold output of any type of terrain. It also lets you set the irrigation, mine and road bonuses separately for each terrain type.

The editor doesn't let you add resources, but I believe it can be done with the unofficial modding tools (I haven't tried it, so I can't say for sure). Just add a bonus resource called salt flats, give it +1 shield and make it available in desert tiles.

[sophist]

Originally posted by Nakar Gabab
We MUST have Horseless Bastards!

...can we also have a Fuel Cell part for those who don't have Uranium for their space ships? Call it the Extremely Polluting Fossil-Fuel-Burning Spaceship Cells?

Then don't call 'em Fuel Cells . They produce heat and water. That's it.

There should be a Fuel Cell technology, though, now that you mention it. Should do something with increasing mobility of units or something

Random idea: what if Tanks/Modern Armor/Mech Inf. created pollution?

Need Fusion Power back so you can have safe Nuclear Reactors.

[gachnar]

Originally posted by Velociryx
Gachnar: Shoot, man....that's worth more than a thank you, c'mon over, I'll buy the brew!

Um... South Carolina is a bit of a drive for me, still. Plus I'm busy with this whole coding gig... I'm just happy someone is interested.

That answers a LOT of questions I had in my mind, especeially re: resources. Cos that means we can add in all sorts of new stuff and make tons of new units that are dependent on resources that don't even exist at present. Very cool stuff!

Yeah. The hacked Civ3Edit is your friend.

About wonders and changing them....I'm not sure what I wanna do, precisely, 'cept limit the power of some, and bulk up the power of others.

How about making the Manhattan Project a small wonder and have it permit building in only the civ that created it. I think we can pull it off too.

I really like your unit changes, too! That's good stuff! Are you using the same graphics for the various unit expansions, or are you doing your own?

Yeah.. all the units in each group are identical. No graphical wizard am I. I can edit... improve... not create. Basically you have to look at the units with the funky right-click menu to see if you should avoid them or not. Not the best solution, but you could argue that its somewhat realistic.

Is it possible to change the default values of outputs for terrain tiles (Ie - can I make jungle tiles better?)

Yes, of course, silly Vel...

Is it possible to add additional resource bonus tiles (could I add "salt flats" to desert, and maybe make them worth one shield??

I considered adding salt... but I would say 1 sheild 2 commerce (gold?). Oh. I did add new graphics for all the resources I added:

Heroine: Luxury (Chemistry) - Needed for Guerillas
Rum: Luxury (Monotheism, dunny why)
Stone: Stategic (Masonry) - Needed for Pyramid, Great Wall
Cotton: Luxury (Invention)

Proposed:
Coffee: Luxury (Refining) - Needed for Software Studio
Sheep: Strategic (Ceremonial Burial) - Needed for Horseless Bastard, Catapult

PS: LMAO at the "Horseless Bastard" unit....THAT'S tops!

LMAO: Launching Mustard At Others?

[Velociryx]

I like your variant, but when I wrote it, I meant "Laughing my a$$ off..."

Heh...some fantastic ideas all around....you mod-folk always amaze me....even with the most limited tools, you guys can create some frankly HEAD TURNING improvements....that's just awesome....

-=Vel=-