Vel Contemplates Mod-Making.....

[Akka]

When you increase hitpoints across the board you're guaranteeing one thing: that battles will take longer.
We used to allow up to 255 (I think) hitpoints in the editor, and we had to reduce it because battles would take several hours to resolve.

Dan

Well, there could be an option then to only see the result of the fight, and not the actual fight. Or a multiplier to deal with 2, 5, 10, 20, 50 rounds in a row and make it faster.
Same to the hit point bar, so it won't be too big (if it's not the case, I still did not tried with very big numbers).

Originally posted by Dan Magaha FIRAXIS
Wouldn't increasing attack power be a better solution than increasing hitpoints?

[/B]

It's not the same. Increasing the Attack of the attacker change the chances of winning a round, while increasing the Defense of the defenser decrease the chance for the attacker to win the round.
Increasing Hit Points diminish the dispersion (which means that the more the HP, the more predictable the fight is), while increasing FP increase the dispersion (which means that the more FP, the less predictable the fight is).
Low HP/high FP increase the possibility for bogus results, high HP/low FP increase the chances of the stronger to win.
Low A/high D increase the chances of the defender to win, high A/low defense increase the chances for the attacker to win.

*broken record rant on*
Give us back the FP/HP on a unit basis ! It allows such more subtle ways to mod...
*broken record rant off*

[Akka]

Originally posted by Velociryx
Still, my basic thinking on the current HP thing is this. As it stands now, there is a flat-rate increase in the capabilities of units as they gain rank. I’d like to vary that a little….a conscript say, has 2hp like now, getting one additional hp (3) when he “graduates” to regular (again, like now), but moving to 5-6 when he becomes a Veteran, and again, jumping to 8-9 when he becomes an elite….just seems like it makes the Vet and Elite troops stand out more (though perhaps the HP jump should be reserved for Elite only, in light of Barracks…..more thought needed there).

The problem here is that Elite units will be hugely more powerful than regulars. And there will be even more bogus result when a elite old unit will fight a regular modern unit.

In any event, one of the elements that makes ancient units competitive with modern ones is the fact that an elite warrior has just as many HP as an elite mech infantry. Any way in the editor to vary this on a “per era” basis (that is to say, an elite warrior tops out at 5 hp, but perhaps an elite Cavalry tops out at 8hp, and an elite mech infantry would have….I dunno…12 or so??? – don’t know if it’s possible or no, but it’s something to think about).

Well, basically you ask for the return of the HP/FP system from Civ2. Pleased to see I'm not alone

[Venger]

Originally posted by Dan Magaha FIRAXIS
Wouldn't increasing attack power be a better solution than increasing hitpoints?

AIGGHH!!! NO NO NO! Tell me you guys have at least read the combat discussions here...

When you increase hitpoints across the board you're guaranteeing one thing: that battles will take longer.

I've doubled them - it's not bad really, although 2 armies fighting would REALLY suck. Luckily the AI doesn't use armies...

We used to allow up to 255 (I think) hitpoints in the editor, and we had to reduce it because battles would take several hours to resolve.

Dan -

Simple solve.

Checkbox on game startup - simplified combat. Simplified gives us what we have now.

Non simplified simply modifies the HP by 10 (like in Civ2). Combat loop simply checks for the mode and only updates the HP bars every 10 HP, and only interfaces with the game animation every 10 HP. Combat calculations are heinously fast, you should be able to resolve 1000 rounds of combat in a single second.

This would be pretty easy to add, and would go a long way to getting rid of the outliers that we complain of (spearmen beating tanks).

Venger

[Venger]

Vel -

I think it's too soon to do a defintiive, wide scope mod. Too much of the game system is in flux. Honestly, I've thought of my own mods, extensive mods, that would REALLY improve Civ3. But I'd rather:

1) Give Firaxis a little time to clean Civ3 up and polish it.

2) Not reinvent the wheel - why create a huge mod pack that get's broken or obsolete with the next patch?

I would LOVE being on an official Apolyton Civ3 mod team - but I think we are jumping the gun too soon. Let's not bring a knife to a gunfight...

Venger

[Velociryx]

Hiya Venger! Was hoping you and Yin might head this way at some point.

I agree that it's too soon to DO the mod, but not too soon to start talking about what it might include. I don't intend to lift a finger just yet, except to see what is and is not currently possible in terms of modding the game (and that too, may well be subject to change).

Still....if we start talking about a mod in terms of what we can change (and given that Dan has already put in an appearance here), perhaps this thread will be digested by the powers that be, and we'll start seeing some of the stuff that we would have modded anyway in a forthcoming patch.....how's that for sneaky?

-=Vel=-

PS to Venger 'bout not wanting to bring a knife to a gunfight.....LOL...WHAT?! After all the posting you've done about inferior units being able to beat more advanced ones?! C'mon dude....you know you'd have a chance....

Sorry...couldn't resist the temptation to add that....heh

[karlmarx9001]

My suggestions:

The industrial era needs some serious work for builder-style play. There's exactly 2 buildings and 2 wonders for the entire era, so the new techs can be used to fill in here. Suggestions: Urban Planning, Taylorism, Telephones, Public Finance, Modern Architecture.

On the call for old units to become obselete once new ones are researched: the reason it takes spearman so long to become obselete is that they can be built without any resources at all, while every defense unit after until rifleman needs a resource. I think you can no longer build them if you have iron; if you lose iron, the option comes back.

[dissent]

Specifically, I'm looking to kill off the option to build spearmen the moment that pikemen become available....

This sort of change would damage a strategy I often use, which is to cut off the resources of other civs. Without resources, the AI cannot build Pikemen, Riflemen, Mech. Infantry, etc. which gives me a huge combat advantage. Resource allocation is an attribute of Civ3 that I *really* like, and don't think it should be changed or modded.

[Dis]

hmm that login looks too close to mine. I didn't think I remembered posting that

[Dis]

is there a way to increase hp's based on the type of unit? This could alleviate problems. But I don't miss FP at all, it's not that important. But the ability to modify HP's would be very nice for mod packs.

but for now the previous suggestion of bumping all the hit points up by 1 seems like a good idea. Helps smooth things over a bit I would imagine.

Does anyone think harbours are too powerful? I can't see how a harbour can build a vet ship. We need shipyard city improvement. Although I don't like to complain about harbours because I always build them . And yes raising the attacks of naval ships as mentioned earlier seems like a wise decision. They seemed low when I first saw their stats.

also manufacturing plants come too late. although they probably are too powerful, so this is probably a good thing. But I don't know, I have never built one

the modern age in general seems to come to late . well not really. year wise it is OK. But the modern age is lacking in interest for me. I'm looking for some ways to beef it up.

more advances as has been mentioned earlier are nice. Telephone etc.

offshore platforms come too late as well. I'd like to see these come slightly earlier to make island cities more viable in late industrial and modern era.

[Xentropy]

Originally posted by Venger
Luckily the AI doesn't use armies...

Huh? I've run into AI armies in just about every game I've played. And that's just at regent level. Do they STOP using them at higher levels?!

[Xentropy]

Originally posted by Dissident
more advances as has been mentioned earlier are nice. Telephone etc.

The Internet -- Makes three unhappy citizens in each city content (access to porn), but increases corruption and waste 20% across your empire (people would rather sit around on forums all day than go to work).

Of course, then you'd have to remove one of the five modern age researcher titles to replace it with "Al Gore".

"Sir, Al Gore has invented The Internet! What would you like to work on now?"

[David Weldon]

So many contributions, so little space... hmm... I'll limit myself to one idea for now.

I think that resources should be very important, but not critical. Venger and I have discussed elsewhere about the real problem being if the human gets all of a particular resource...*poof* there went the challenge.

I consider resources as extra-pure or especially accessible locations, whereas the actual resource exists everywhere. To this end, the presence of a resource makes it easier to build certain units, but it doesn't make any particular unit stronger.

I have created duplicate units for all units which require resources, and made them available without the resource but at a higher cost. This simulates the extra effort required to extract the resource from non-ideal locations. In the game, this allows anyone without the resource to build that type of a unit if they're willing to pay the extra cost.

Personally I use a very steep penalty (3x cost) because I like feeling the need to acquire the resource, but this can of course be seasoned to taste...

[Pyrodrew]

Hmmm

By increasing hitpoints it does make the latest tech units stronger, but this would result in an easier game since the human player often takes the lead later in the game. Perhaps if industrial age units had a slight increase in production cost & modern age units had a significant increase in production cost it would balance things out or make things more challenging for the player. Especially since the AI loves to build obsolete units.

Huh? I've run into AI armies in just about every game I've played. And that's just at regent level.

I've done Regent games & I rarely see an AI army if ever.

also manufacturing plants come too late. although they probably are too powerful, so this is probably a good thing.

If they were allowed sooner they should be decrease from +2 production per square to +1 production per square. This would limit their power.

the presence of a resource makes it easier to build certain units, but it doesn't make any particular unit stronger.

The Internet

These & other ideas everyone mentioned sound great... atleast to try.

Other possible ideas:

Increasing the speed of non-wind naval units
Banannas for Jungles (start position balance)
Oasis for Desert (start position balance)
Grasslands cannot be mined (maybe, untested)
Stock Exchange (why did they take this out?)
Supermarkets/Refrigeration (why did they take this out?)
Hollywood (late huge culture boost) - anyone got a picture of Marilyn?
More possible upgrades for units (so the AI builds less obsolete units)

[Sarxis]

The only problem I am having getting back into 'official public' modding is the fact that more patches are probably on the way, and with each patch, we basically have to recreate our mods.

I am doing some personal stuff right now- and am incorporating some of the other great mod ideas being shared by you other modders- but I am reluctant to post anything new for public use at this time because of the state of flux CivIII is in currently.

However-- when the bug fixing patches are all but done, it would be good to review the game and see if the mod community at large will work together to create a mod that WE THE GAMERS want- a mod that will make CivIII a game we want to play.

[Nakar Gabab]

I'm not sure this can be done - yet. But here's a good tech suggestion:

Media
Industrial Age tech. Lets you do something with defection and propaganda resistance. In some mods already.

Mass Media (or integrated media)
A modern tech that grants access to a Wonder - CNN! ...or whatever won't get us sued. Basically, a globally-integrated system of information gathering that gives your civilization free, permanent, uncapturable spies (think Empath Guild in SMAC). Maybe some other benefits too, like culture. The tech itself could actually make propaganda BETTER (and we should probably remove democracy's immunity to it... does that even make sense?), so we could try paying to steal cities for real this time.

EDIT: Maybe the "Global Network" wonder would make an enemy civ have a chance to defy its leader and elect you UN Sec-General? That might be interesting - so-and-so went for the UN for a cheap win, but YOU put TVs in every home and touted YOUR candidate!

Small-Scale Warfare
Another modern tech. Gives you Special Forces, an upgrade to Marines and/or Paratroopers. High attack (hits hard and fast), low defense (represents a small group of commadoes, so it isn't capable of fighting off an entire tank battalion if caught). Attacks from transports and can airdrop. What I wish I could see with this is the Spec. Forces units being like privateers, yet somehow NOT, if you understand my meaning... something to the extent of revealing their nationality if attacked or spied-upon (having an active spy in the enemy civ would allow you to ID spec forces right away, making espionage more useful). There might be other consequences as well, but it's hard to actually do anything too complex in the editor - that I know how to do. I'd just say make 'em unidentifiable but that would make them TOO strong.

Biowarfare
Branches from Genetics. Lets you build a small wonder, the Biotech Facility, which lets spies unleash devastating attacks on cities, slaughtering population and causing chaos in cities all over the empire (not ALL of them, but not just in one - c'mon, unrest because of terrorism in NYC didn't mean the rest of us were just chugging along, Sept. 11 screwed up the whole damn country). Downside is, of course, a fair chance of getting caught and a serious atrocity to this. In addition, I was thinking of adding to it...

Eugenia
I'm not sure that's even a word, but it's basically an idea I had. New government types are incredibly easy to add, and we kinda don't have any new governments after Communism, why not add some 'future society' choices, or rather, potential modern societies which don't YET exist - but might? A Eugenic society believes in selective breeding and euthanasia, and the use of genetics to weed out population. They use forced labor ("Yeah, a temple? Just round up the 10,000 least genetically-useful citizens and work them to death, then recycle the parts into composite fibers"), giving us yet another pop-rush government, but produce fewer happy citizens and culture (the culture is sterile and highly regulated), can't support units and have high war weariness (the citizenry has no reason to care about the 'inferior' civilizations outside their little isolationist country, so militaries should be small, efficient, and defensive). Corruption is moderate (those damn genetically inferiors keep pulling down our efficiency!), and they're susceptible to propaganda and unrest-defections (people just want to be free!). Finally, give them depotism's food penalties (slower, more regulated growth), but commerce bonuses (highly efficient work - once you get past all those worthless types). It'd be hard to make it preferable to communism, possibly, unless communism were toned down... but the modern age governments (say 1 or 2 of them) would have tons of advantages and disadvantages to really shake up playing styles. Give AI civs preferences for this, that, and the other, and maybe things will really diverge in the modern age... maybe.

Well, that was long winded, complicated, and probably unworkable. I'm done.