Vel Contemplates Mod-Making.....

[Velociryx]

Okay....having played the game and beat the hell out of it on every setting but Deity (hey! Don't rush me! I'm savoring the kill and all that!), I've taken to closely reading the various discussion threads about weak spots in the game.

Some of this stuff, we can't do anything about.

Some of it though, we can, via the editor.

So that got me thinking in terms of a mod.

This is not my thing. I'll say that in advance. I can't manipulate graphics in any meaningful way. I'm no kind of artist at all when it comes to visual media (unless stick figures count), so if I do this, it'll only be with a lot of assistance.

I do have a vision though, of what I'd like the mod to be, and here are a few bits of that:

Combat
Personally, I stopped having trouble with odd combat results a long time ago, when I adjusted my strategy. However, I think that an adjustment to the HP levels between unit ranks is a good thing. As to what the specific numbers ought to be changed to....don't know. Let's talk about that and other possibilities.

Techs!
As I understand it, there are eleven empty slots. That's a lot of flexibililty. A lot of things we could add/change to make the game more interesting and include more tech-tree-driven strats in the game. Again, no specifics in mind just now....I only know that it's doable, and it's something that should be done.

Units
More units, especially in the modern age. At least four of our tech slots should be spent here as well to help flesh out the modern age.

Also, I'd like to see a "generic" unit in each age that requires no resources (again, a plea for graphics! LOL).

Other Stuff
Can one of the board's resident hackers see if there's a way to go in and "turn off" certain units from even being an option to build in the city's governor screen? Specifically, I'm looking to kill off the option to build spearmen the moment that pikemen become available....and keep with that pattern right on through the game. If we REMOVE the option to build outdated stuff, then the AI will have no choice but to build modern units.

The reason I'm posting this here is because I'm looking to foster discussion on it (and I'm also looking for talent! LOL...I know what I want to see in broad terms, and I'm looking to flesh that out here, as well as beg for assistance with the stuff that I"m not so good at). Anything that's seen as a weakness in the system AND CAN BE CHANGED in the editor, let's talk about it.

Specifically, let's avoid talking about stuff that we can't change in the editor. Not only will it not do any good in terms of stuff we can include in the mod, but if we can't change it in the editor, then it probably ought to go in one of the numerous complaint threads.

I'd really like for this to be about what positive changes we can make, and why we ought to.

So....ideas?

-=Vel=-

[LordLynch64]

Modding hoo hoo wee ha

Hey Vel like in other posts you have displayed an array of great ideas.

I my self would like to throw out a few Ideas.

1. I think that the passage of time if possible to manipulate such a thing, should be turned down to make the years go by slower. This would increase the ancient area a little more and give the game some more turns to really develope a history. Along with a tweek in the Science department making it harder to aquire sed techs thus increasing your ancient era.

2. As far as Techs go I always liked the capatalizim tech from Civ II all it would do in this version is increase the effect of producing wealth in your city. I also thought that a few governments should be added as far as the specifics go I really don't know. I also thought the eras could be broken down more like Ancient-Antiquity-darkages-midival-renisaunce-exploration-industrial-modern.

3. Units I could go on for days. I wont of course I will limit it to a few like a Special Ops unit like the Green Berats or Army Rangers, or Navy Seals Unit. I also think subs should be more covert.

4. More CIVS. The other forum I know is working on an extra Civ project so there would be a Start but deffinatly more CIV's.

Well I will get back to work hope some of these are intellegent Ideas.

B

[Dis]

increase the ancient age? are you crazy?

naval units is a biggie. There need to be more. And the first priority is to fix the movement!! (if you haven't don this yourself already).

I like the thought of a generic unit a lot. Say a partisan type unit that represents a civ using whatever resources they can scrounge up to defeat an enemy. This would piss me off less than losing to a spearman . But I don't want spearman stats, these partisans should have better stats.

I think at a certain time, upgrading units should be cheaper (there must be a way to accomplish this). There must be a way to let the ai upgrade his units. I think as it is now, the ai lacks the money to upgrade old units.

Longbowman need to be upgradable. I'm tired of seeing these around. They should upgrade to an infantry/rifleman/musketman unit- just put guns in their hands .

[Dan Magaha FIRAXIS]

Wouldn't increasing attack power be a better solution than increasing hitpoints? When you increase hitpoints across the board you're guaranteeing one thing: that battles will take longer.

We used to allow up to 255 (I think) hitpoints in the editor, and we had to reduce it because battles would take several hours to resolve.

Dan

[Dis]

hey I like my battles to be realtime.

[LordLynch64]

Some people like the Ancient Age. I don't want it to be just for gaining your footing. I imagine giant ancient battles with well astablished Empires. Yes what a rush.

B

[Dis]

I have giant ancient battles. But they aren't varied. I just use lots and lots of horseman.

[Dis]

I forgot.

pyramids- too powerful. Put a limit on these- say mass production makes it obsolete.

I see firaxis has toned dowm most wonders- why not the pyramids? Hoover dam has a similar problem. Maybe the cost should be increased on Hoover Dam.

[Arrian]

Hmmm...

Combat - Armies should be able to attack multiple times if the units in them allow it (tanks/modern armor). Perhaps a wider gap from ancient units to modern a/d stats - although I think mainly ships.

Tech - I'd like to see the early industrial age last longer. Specifically, I'd like to see a point in building frigates and galleons, as opposed to just waiting for destroyers and battleships. Thus, a few extra techs would come in handy. Maybe some more modern era techs to spread out the space race a bit. I also think there should be a longer wait between republic and democracy (I think demo should be a modern era thing). As for new governments... only if the AI shows an ability to use them. I don't think adding govts that only the human can effectively use is a good idea.

Units - Ironclads should have the same restrictions as galleys (in terms of sinking in dangerous waters), cruise missles should be able to be loaded onto modern naval vessels (destoyers, nuc. subs, battleships, aegis) and should have precision strike capability upon the discovery of satellites. I think there could be a case for bringing back partisans (pre-req: nationalism?). Those could be the modern age no-resources-required unit (rifleman w/an extra move?). I think I'd like to see cruisers back, and change the destoyer stats. A destroyer is an ASW unit, cruisers are for slugging it out with other surface ships (as are battleships). Indian war elephant change to 5/2/2 from 4/3/2? Just a thought. Longer range for stealth bombers? Should riflemen have 1 more defense?

Other stuff - Longevity sucks as is, any way to change what it does? Can we mess with Shakespeare to make it more worthwhile? This one's probably impossible: any way to somehow add bomber escort missions for fighters? I know, I know, I'm crazy.

Could we make razing a size 25, 5700 yr-old capitol city offensive to the AI, sorta like using nukes? Razing huge, modern cities should have more negative effects. I wish the UN had powers.

Can do anything about the expansionist civs getting the shaft? Is there a way to increase the bonus they get on hut-popping? Specifically, can we adjust it so that they actually get more settlers from huts?

-Arrian

[Zurai001]

I personally tried adding a hitpoint to every experience level, to even out combat... problem was, it broke bombardment. Especially in the ancient/medieval eras. A better solution would be to just add a flat multiplier for each age (although not as drastic as some have suggested, i think). Maybe 1.25 for medieval, 1.5 for industrial, and 2.0 for modern? These are out of a hat, it would require fairly extensive testing to get the multipliers right. Personally I don't have a problem with combat as it is, with the exception of Age of Sail ships, all of which have received a boost in my rules.

The problem with making true obsolete units is that if you don't have the resources, you now can't build *any* units. I think we can agree that would be a bad thing. If you're just talking about not having the option to build them when you have a better tech, that's done for you. The game will only let you build the highest-level unit on each 'tree' that you have resources for.

Changes I've personally made are:
Making Helicopters lose the 'Immobile' trait, so they can perform true insertion/extraction missions.
Creating an 'Attack Helicopter' unit that is a mobile air unit.
Giving Cruise Missiles the 'tactical missile' flag so they can be carried on nuke subs.
Increasing the capacity of Nuke subs.
Drastically increasing the attack of Attack Subs (the first one).
Closing all the upgrade loopholes (swordsmen upgrade to knights, cavalry ugrades to tanks, upgrading to UUs, etc)
Slightly increased the frequency of resources (by no more than 20 in most cases, and none are over 200).

[Heliodorus]

I'm not as well-traveled in Civ3 yet, so I shall keep my comments brief.

I think the unit obsolesence issue is a serious one, even UUs ought to be eliminated after a while (modern armor replace panzers; Rifleman replace legionary,etc.). That is one of the single best ways to get the AI back into the game.

Naval units have got to have more movement.

I am NOT concerned with the HP/FP issue. That horse is dead, and the AI takes advantage of the way it now stands nicely - and the AI NEEDS that exploit (and so may I, if MP ever comes out).

AI ought to trade techs for money or other techs more. Why does the AI offer a trade in the early game, but then stops? Makes no sense. Either the AI should tech whore, or we should not be able to as badly as we can.

That's all I have at present.

[napalm010]

Velociryx

Here are a few changes I have made that might fit in your mod ideas.

1. Having older units not available on production screen. Going in editor and making units upgradeable seems to fix this. Once the upgradeable unit is discovered, the older unit does not appear in my production options anymore.

Personally I have made just about every unit upgradeable. I realize it does not fit into real life but it feels right in the game for me.

2. Submarine attack and movement values.

Submarine +1 attack, +1 movement
Nuclear Sub, +2 attack,+1 movement

I have made other changes. Most of them apply to making big civs through war viable. Dont think these would fit into your mod. If u want to know these changes just say so.

[gachnar]

Originally posted by Dan Magaha FIRAXIS
Wouldn't increasing attack power be a better solution than increasing hitpoints? When you increase hitpoints across the board you're guaranteeing one thing: that battles will take longer.

Actually I found that moving from 2/3/4/5 to 3/4/5/7 reduced the number of losses my tanks have against pikeman. Its not dramatic, but increasing hitpoints (according to someone's math) gives a slight advantage to the unit with the higher stat. I use it all the time.

We used to allow up to 255 (I think) hitpoints in the editor, and we had to reduce it because battles would take several hours to resolve.

I would just like to officially say:

ha.

I imagined everyone on the Civ3 dev team sitting around a computer with popcorn and Coke cheering on a 245 HP Knight trying to take a city defended by a 230 HP Pikeman... for 3 hours.

What would y'all think of having multiple versions of units based on available resources?

[korn469]

Vel

in working with my Blitz mod i have discovered the following about upgrading units

there are two upgrade switches in the editor, one lets you select which unit it will upgrade to and the other is the upgrade checkbox, so with this you could have swordmen become obsolete once riflemen are discovered by selecting swordmen upgrade to riflemen, however if you don't select the upgrade box special ability, then although swordmen would disappear from the build queue, you couldn't upgrade swordmen to riflemen

so you can make units either obsolete, or actually upgradable

also despite what dan says, there is an option where you can cut off battles, so extra hitpoints isn't a problem plus the wait time isn't too bad, i doubled hitpoints in my mod and it hasn't made battles that much longer, but it has made the results "better"

hope that helps

ps once i finish with finals i will update my mod

[Velociryx]

Just back from lunch, and I’m glad to see so many responses! WhoooHoooo! Was doing some lunchtime thinking about it, and I think that a mix of increasing HP and Attack/Defense values on certain units is prolly the way to go….a 255HP unit is kinna cool to contemplate, but I have to agree with Dan….go overboard with raising the HP, and you get battles that literally would take days!@

Still, my basic thinking on the current HP thing is this. As it stands now, there is a flat-rate increase in the capabilities of units as they gain rank. I’d like to vary that a little….a conscript say, has 2hp like now, getting one additional hp (3) when he “graduates” to regular (again, like now), but moving to 5-6 when he becomes a Veteran, and again, jumping to 8-9 when he becomes an elite….just seems like it makes the Vet and Elite troops stand out more (though perhaps the HP jump should be reserved for Elite only, in light of Barracks…..more thought needed there).

In any event, one of the elements that makes ancient units competitive with modern ones is the fact that an elite warrior has just as many HP as an elite mech infantry. Any way in the editor to vary this on a “per era” basis (that is to say, an elite warrior tops out at 5 hp, but perhaps an elite Cavalry tops out at 8hp, and an elite mech infantry would have….I dunno…12 or so??? – don’t know if it’s possible or no, but it’s something to think about).

I agree….pyramids are overpowered…..sun tzu’s too, for that matter, and hoover….OTOH, I agree that Shakey’s Theater is underpowered…..anybody know how much freedom we have to mod that stuff??

I also like the idea about extending the lifespan and usefulness of the industrial age navies….perhaps we could (for the moment) arbitrarily say we’ll spend three of our open tech slots here, to give the navies a longer shelf life? Armies SHOULD be able to blitz, IMO…I like that one!

Questions I have:
Is it possible to “freeze” a given unit at a set number of HP? That is to say….I make a flamethrower unit, give him heinous attack power, but make it where he only has 3hp and can never get more. GREAT unit for clearing out tough to root out defenders, but he can’t ever get “stronger” from a HP standpoint. Can it be done? Anybody know?

Terrain tiles need addressing. Is it possible to add additional resources AND MAKE THEM WORK in the game? Let’s say I want to make a “junkie” unit. Can I make an “opium” resource and set it as a requirement for the junkie? (no…I was NOT seriously considering that…lol). This would enable us to make jungle/tundra tiles competitive again too…..

The goals of the mod are these:

To give the player more options, the ability to explore more and different strategies, and to encourage a deeper level of game play.

Specifically, here’s what I’m looking for:

Alternate government types

Unit names/ideas/graphics

Tech names/ideas/graphics

More of the sort of *excellent* ideas that have been fronted here so far!!!

Question – any way to create an entirely new building for civs, or can we just modify the existing ones?

I’ve been considering doing a slight edit on the pricing for units. It likely would not be a huge change….more of a tweak (make swordsmen/horsemen LESS of a good deal, make Musketeers more competitive – Alternate plan re: musket men/musketeers: leave the price alone but give them ZOC, making them the only infantry based unit from that time period with ZOC).

Give every unit with a missile weapon a slight bombard (so it’ll get a freebie shot on incoming attackers). It’d be NICE if we could give Pikemen a freebie shot on incoming cavs, but I don’t see how it’s possible.

Re: Changing the upgrade path for ancient/middle ages offensive units (swordsmen, horsemen, knights, longbow) – I’m on the fence here. One the one hand, you’re absolutely right….all you gotta do is put a gun in the guy’s hand, and you’re all set, but….I DO rather like the fact that not allowing offensive troops to upgrade into the modern era sets up an opportunity cost for attacking (puts the attacker on a very definite timetable….his army has a shelf life….use it or face obsolescence. Not 100% sure. Convince me?

Other stuff:
Units in every age that have no resource requirements: Same stats as their resource-requiring counterparts, but with a 50% shield markup (Light Tank, same stats as a tank, no resource requirements—assumes that the civ building it has scrounged around from wherever to pick up the needed materials….but it carries a hefty shield markup). Do that same sort of thing across the board. “Frontiersman” = Musketman without saltpeter, “Partisan Rebel” = Infantry minus the requirements, etc.

Also, include “normally priced” or closer to normally priced variants (again, no resource requirements) with lower a/d/m values to add variety, HOWEVER, when the list of units is expanded, the “null resource” units will not get those expansions. They get the basics, and that’s it. This will make resource acquisition more of an optional deal than an outright requirement, and if the “other units” are attractive enough, the incentive will certainly be there.

I like the idea of an extended ancient era, but I suspect there will be many who balk at it. How long of an extension did you have in mind?

Thank you to those who have contributed so far! Keep the ideas coming! Discussion is step one….finding people with the skills needed to make it look cool will be step two….step three will be the magic….

-=Vel=-

More later!