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My Criticisms of Civ3 (with questions for Firaxis)

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  • My Criticisms of Civ3 (with questions for Firaxis)

    I have a couple of reasons for opening this thread. For one thing, I'd like to dispel the myth that I'm a Firaxis agent or sycophant. But more importantly, these are game issues that are not being addressed — at least to my satisfaction — by the good people at Firaxis. Note that my criticisms are of the game, and not of them.

    I would appreciate answers from Dan or someone right here so that we'll have a single organized source of reference.

    City Population Numbers

    All these numbers, except for 1s, are utterly unreadable. Their drop shadows are not rendered properly. In fact, they are hideous, and I believe the eyes make an unconscious effort to avoid looking at them. This attribute hit me like a brick the moment I loaded a file into the patched game.

    Questions

    How did this get missed? Why was it allowed to pass muster? And when will it be fixed?

    No Stack Movement

    As a professional developer with experience going all the way back to Timex Sinclairs with 8K of RAM, I've been through the whole drill of software development from design to implementation to maintenance. Sometimes, a missed feature can nearly cripple an otherwise stellar application. This comes close.

    I like the idea of workers as opposed to some synthetic and abstract public works model. However! Having to move more than a hundred workers one unit at a time is simply insanity. It is like having a beautiful suit with a gaping hole in the crotch.

    This well documented and ubiquitous tedium is multiplied when combined with my next criticism, but it is a separate issue.

    In my opinion, any nondeterminism issues with respect to stack movement are trivial to minor. This would not be difficult to design and implement with simple properties and methods that are coordinated between the unit objects and the tile objects (assuming an object oriented design).

    Questions

    Do you or do you not believe that the ability to move all units on a stack at once would greatly facilitate game play, and would greatly enhance the civ playing experience? If not, why not? If so, is this an item on the table for you to implement?

    Unit Activation Order

    Whatever rhyme or reason there is with respect to what unit is the next to be activated, it is a hard nut to crack. Just when you seem to have a handle on how this works, you get torpedoed by a surprise activation of some irrelevant unit far away from the area where you are currently working.

    There are two contexts in particular where this is so annoying as to cause me to curse and rant out loud.

    1. Say that I have put together an array of building brigades with my workers: a couple of mountain brigades, a hill brigade, and a loose cannon or two for pollution mop-ups, etc. With Replaceable Parts for an industrious civ under democracy, it takes exactly 9 foreign workers to build a road/railroad combo on a mountain. My mountain brigade stands ready. I order the first worker to build. Then the second. Then the third. Suddenly, without warning, a unit outside this brigade is activated. One of two annoying things happens: either I must find my way back where I was, if I am lucky enough to notice the abberation; or I give the wrong order to the wrong unit, and must decide whether to reload and do over, or forget about it.

    2. Say that I am in the middle of a battle. The entire battle has been meticulously planned beforehand. There is a continuity of thought, movement, and attack. I order my first unit to attack. I order my second unit. Woah! That wasn't my second unit! That was some horse's ass worker way back in my homeland who has now been moved to a mountain tile where he has wasted a move and now must waste a move to get back. Once again, I have to muddle my way back to the scene of battle and try to recover the train of thought that was jerked from my head by this bizarre implementation of unit activation.

    Questions

    Can you and will you implement unit activation such that all units in the current stack are exhausted before focus moves to another stack? Can and will you further change this item such that once one stack has been exhausted, the next stack or unit to be activated is the one in closest proximity?

    I suppose these are my primary criticisms and questions, as they are the things that most affect my enjoyment of the game.

    May I get answers, please?

    (edited for spelling)
    "Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatum." — William of Ockham

  • #2
    It is to laugh!
    I've been on these boards for a long time and I still don't know what to think when it comes to you -- FrantzX, December 21, 2001

    "Yin": Your friendly, neighborhood negative cosmic force.

    Comment


    • #3
      Yin,

      I don't presume to know what you might be laughing at. Psychosis is a particularly robust state at blockading attempts to predict it. Fortunately, for my own well being, I had already counted on your crashing this thread, trolling it, and contributing nothing.

      Thanks.

      You forgot your "Ha!".
      "Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatum." — William of Ockham

      Comment


      • #4
        I don't presume to know ...
        You NOT presuming to know something? WOW! Must be tough on a programming genius such as yourself, eh? Can't imagine how you have time to post here, what, with all the offers from government agencies and top software development houses looking at that 8K experience and saying: "Get him. Any cost!"
        I've been on these boards for a long time and I still don't know what to think when it comes to you -- FrantzX, December 21, 2001

        "Yin": Your friendly, neighborhood negative cosmic force.

        Comment


        • #5
          Oh. So that was it. Criminey, you never cease to disappoint.

          For your edification, have someone explain to you that "going all the way back to" this or that implies a continuity of experience that encompasses the entire synclasm.

          You've come in and dropped your turd. Now please go away.

          Else, I shall taunt you with twice as many words as these.
          "Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatum." — William of Ockham

          Comment


          • #6
            Oh, I know what it means ... just found it pathetically funny you felt such pride to mention it!
            I've been on these boards for a long time and I still don't know what to think when it comes to you -- FrantzX, December 21, 2001

            "Yin": Your friendly, neighborhood negative cosmic force.

            Comment


            • #7
              Oh, I was proud of it indeed.

              Those were the days when you had to consider every detail of what you were doing. There was no storage device (not an affordable one, anyway). You had a limited amount of time to write your application and get your analysis before the unit burned up. With a mere 8K of memory, and with nontokenized variables, you had to conserve like nobody's business in order to do something — anything!— that was more than simply trivial.

              However, the unit's ability to bank-switch out its own ROM and replace it with yours meant that you could write your entire code in machine language. Not assembler! That would have been too weighty.

              So, code looked something like this:

              FF E0 11 D8 44 41

              As I recall, that would have printed a letter "A" in the upper left corner of the screen.

              Ah, the memories!
              "Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatum." — William of Ockham

              Comment


              • #8
                Hey, could you try to type your future posts in machine language? Thanks.
                I've been on these boards for a long time and I still don't know what to think when it comes to you -- FrantzX, December 21, 2001

                "Yin": Your friendly, neighborhood negative cosmic force.

                Comment


                • #9
                  FF E0 11 D8 44 46
                  FF E0 11 D8 44 4F
                  FF E0 11 D8 44 52
                  FF E0 11 D8 44 20
                  FF E0 11 D8 44 59
                  FF E0 11 D8 44 4F
                  FF E0 11 D8 44 55
                  FF E0 11 D8 44 2C
                  FF E0 11 D8 44 20
                  FF E0 11 D8 44 59
                  FF E0 11 D8 44 45
                  FF E0 11 D8 44 53
                  FF E0 11 D8 44 21
                  "Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatum." — William of Ockham

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Domestic Nag

                    I forgot this one. Often, I use a slow-growth strategy for various purposes. Clicking through one-by-one on the domestic advisor suggesting I build an unwanted aqueduct or hospital is a waste of time.

                    Question

                    Any chance the domestic nag can be made optional? Alternately, can there be a selection of response to her along the lines of, "No, and don't bother me about this anymore."?
                    "Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatum." — William of Ockham

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: My Criticisms of Civ3 (with questions for Firaxis)

                      Questions
                      Can you and will you implement unit activation such that all units in the current stack are exhausted before focus moves to another stack? Can and will you further change this item such that once one stack has been exhausted, the next stack or unit to be activated is the one in closest proximity?
                      [/QUOTE]

                      You raise excellent points I've wondered about myself. Let me just add that in lieu of stacking and half-intelligent unit activation, _at least_ it should be possible to activate all military units _first_ and all workers _later_. This simple fix would relive some, if not all, frustration with unit activation.

                      Not that your suggenstions aren't much better, mind.

                      The 1.16f patch has made my game crash, for the first time ever, as well. Can anybody else reporduce this: I get a freezeout evey time I offer a strategic resource and wonder what they'd like to give me for it.
                      "The number of political murders was a little under one million (800,000 - 900,000)." - chegitz guevara on the history of the USSR.
                      "I think the real figures probably are about a million or less." - David Irving on the number of Holocaust victims.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        And here's one other. Clearer download and installation instructions of the various patches, along with where to find them, would be most helpful.
                        "Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatum." — William of Ockham

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I agree that your points should be addressed, However:

                          Numbers: I don't seem to be having the same problem that you are- I saw your screenshot depicting the numbers and mine look nothing like that. Interesting.

                          Stack Movement: The biggest point you bring forward, yet one that strangely doesn't bother me all that much. Perhaps I am too used to Civ 2... Still it is worth patching sometime in the future

                          Activation: This can be solved by activating ALL the units you want to use by first right-clicking on the unit and then clicking on the unit- doing this multiple times will in effect stack up the activation list.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by docken

                            Activation: This can be solved by activating ALL the units you want to use by first right-clicking on the unit and then clicking on the unit- doing this multiple times will in effect stack up the activation list.
                            This certainly works, but is IMO a LOT of hassle. What happens if you are trying to get all the workers on a tile to do something to make the active unit move away occurs if you move them all(or some) to the square individually on the turn you use them. You move worker A then you move worker B. Selecting worker B while A is active is equivalent to giving worker A a 'wait' command, so that unit is put at the end of the queue. So of you "wait" 3 of the workers in your stack, the focus will leave them and come back at the end, save any others you "wait". Anyway, this is IMO a retarded way to program it. You should only be able to "wait" a unit by pressing 'w', and I believe if it also always went to the nearest unit yet to move, everything would work smoothly.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              It's unfortunate

                              A LOT of gamers are losing patience with the new Civilization! This is because they don't know what they are doing.

                              Good luck!
                              Castle Wolfenstein or Civilization 3? So little time...

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