German release/translation gaff

[madmario]

Cybershy, explain this to me plz?

Originally posted by CyberShy
translating is something completely different then modding btw.
don't by silly on that.

Please explain the difference to me. Pretend I am a judge, not a gamer. How is it different than, say, changing the text in the game to be more flavorful?


-mario

[madmario]

Or you explain it Skev

Originally posted by SKev
The German translation of the program is not a MOD...

The creation of a traditional MOD requires a measure of original “artistic” creativity by the author.

Have you ever tried to do a translation, of, say Beowulf?
How about Harry Potter?

Have you found a babelfish or machine translation to be inadequate?

My point is that translations DO require A LOT of artistic and creative energies.

Also, where does your definition appear in the legal text, anywhere?

Do you think a judge would believe your argument, based on what is written in the legal text and contracts involved?

thanks for your input...

-mario

[Robert]

Und Leute wie CyberShy haben hier eh keine Freunde

Simplified thinking: All things done by fans = good
all things done by Infogrames = wrong

lawsuit: fan = victim
company = hunter


I'm sorry that you dislike reality, and if you'd like to find your friends among surealists, go ahead. I won't be one of them in that case indeed.

Do you really think Kai Fiebach as to do that so that Infogrames (and Firaxis) image gets ugly?

that's not what I said.
What I said is that it's not the correct attitude.
Starting to yell and to treat. It's very imature and all that.
As we know right now, he didn't have to pay any $ but only because he took a lawner........... it became expensive. Is infogrames to blame for that ?

I agree that translating civ files to german by fans would cause big damage to IG Germany. But acting as they acted is just Unnaceptable.

WHY ?
They only wanted Kai to sign a document in which he declared to not start a project like that. They didn't sue him for money or something like that. It would've been without any money problems for Kai, if he wouldn't have token a lawner. That's his fault.......

Please explain the difference to me. Pretend I am a judge, not a gamer. How is it different than, say, changing the text in the game to be more flavorful?

To make it complete:
translation into a language that's scheduled to be released for money, that's what we talk about.

Kai wanted to release a product that IGGermany wanted to release as well.
When I make a scenario, there's no problem, since IG isn't going to release any scenario for money, and for sure not the scenario I'm going to release. IN CASE I wouldn't 100% know what kind of scenario Infogrames would release in an x-pack, and I would create it the same way, I'm sure I would do an illegal thing as well.

If I would start a dutch translation project, I'm sure there's nothing wrong since IG didn't announce to release a dutch version of civ3.

And that's the difference, you can mod and change anything you want as long as IG didn't announce to release such a thing.

[yin26]

Pathetic pandering. You make me ill. You miss the entire point. IG has said that they are 'forced' to 'immediately' protect Firaxis over copyright infringements. Hate to tell you, pally, but under that broad definition, they could easily sue your ass for doing a translation in your country, whether they have so far publically announced any plans to release such a thing themselves or not.

In fact, I encourage you to do so in order that you might wake up.

[madmario]

Originally posted by CyberShy
To make it complete:
translation into a language that's scheduled to be released for money, that's what we talk about.

Kai wanted to release a product that IGGermany wanted to release as well.
When I make a scenario, there's no problem, since IG isn't going to release any scenario for money, and for sure not the scenario I'm going to release.

Why are you so sure, and where in the text of the game or the box is this distinction made clear? Why do you not appoach my direct question about flavour text and language and rather look at a clearer (ironically, more muddled) Mod scenario?

If I would start a dutch translation project, I'm sure there's nothing wrong since IG didn't announce to release a dutch version of civ3.

And that's the difference, you can mod and change anything you want as long as IG didn't announce to release such a thing.

IG does not seem to agree with you. They want permission for any MOD.

ANY.

-mario

[greggbert]

Better Harry Potter Analogy

Infogrames analogy with harry potter was very poor.

I think that a better analogy would be someone who volunteers to come to your house FOR FREE and take your copy of Harry Potter that you bought and hand write german translations of that book under the original text so that you can read it.

Or someone who reads a copy of Harry Potter to a blind person who bought the book.

Maybe they read it to him because it is not written in sign language and the "books on tape" version has not yet come out.

-Gregg Murray


PS: If you repost this excellent argument, you have my permission!!!!! Also you can transalte it into German or Arabic or any other freaking language you want.

[Farmer Jimbo]

Originally posted by CyberShy

As we know right now, he didn't have to pay any $ but only because he took a lawner........... it became expensive. Is infogrames to blame for that ?

If you are served a notice/summons/legal whatever by a major coporation claiming infringment of copyright, and you don't retain a lawyer/barrister for advice, you should take a picture of yourself and submit it to goatse.cx

WHY ?
They only wanted Kai to sign a document in which he declared to not start a project like that. They didn't sue him for money or something like that. It would've been without any money problems for Kai, if he wouldn't have token a lawner. That's his fault.......

They did indeed sue him to cease and desist and threatened to sue for damages approaching 5 figures in american dollars.

To make it complete:
translation into a language that's scheduled to be released for money, that's what we talk about.

While that is the realistic description of the motivation, the technical language of the suit and subsequent public statements by Infogrames.de have a differnt meaning. They are asserting their right/power to enforce copyright on behalf of Firaxis. That means anything that modifies the orginal game in any way. They have stated that any such modification must be done with prior written approval. They have not mentioned any exceptions to that rule.

Kai wanted to release a product that IGGermany wanted to release as well.
When I make a scenario, there's no problem, since IG isn't going to release any scenario for money, and for sure not the scenario I'm going to release. IN CASE I wouldn't 100% know what kind of scenario Infogrames would release in an x-pack, and I would create it the same way, I'm sure I would do an illegal thing as well.

Again, Infogrames is reserving the right to sue you for modifying the game without their consent, period.

If I would start a dutch translation project, I'm sure there's nothing wrong since IG didn't announce to release a dutch version of civ3.

The fact that they have not announced a project to sell a Dutch localization has absolutely no bearing on the posistion Infogrames.de is taking. If you don't have their approval, you are violating the copyright of Firaxis, which they are defending.

And that's the difference, you can mod and change anything you want as long as IG didn't announce to release such a thing.

I'm sorry, but you do not understand the implications of the stance that Infogrames.de is taking.

[madmario]

Originally posted by CyberShy
As we know right now, he didn't have to pay any $ but only because he took a lawner........... it became expensive. Is infogrames to blame for that ?

Have you ever been involved in any kind of court case that threatened the financial well being of your family? They were going to slap him with financial losses, which could have been huge.

Nor did they give kai a friendly phone call, and say, "hey stop." They used a lawyer right off the bat. There is some kind of law in germany that requires attorneys to get equal pay, I believe, too.

I find this argument mildly insulting at one end, and classist at the other.

They only wanted Kai to sign a document in which he declared to not start a project like that.

Actually, ANY mod of civ3, I believe. not just "one like that."

They didn't sue him for money or something like that.

They would have if Kai didn't sign right away. No day in court nothing.

[Nemo]

SKev: so are you infogrames' lawyer? or an infogrames' marketing employee? Your speech and you registration seem ...how shall I say? ... a bit timely? (Nemo sits back and remembers the OS/2-MS Usenet bashings and praises by each companies employees)

So pretty much any mod maker who cuts and pastes graphics from other parts of the game, but does not create them from scratch, is not making a mod, but an infringement upon the copyrights. So, that brings us back to where you so diligently tried to stay away from...the translation takes more creativity and inteligence (see below), thus it should be considered more of a mod. whereas, many (not all) mods are mearly copy&paste's from other areas of the game, which would make them more of an infringement. so, i must say i agree with you logic, but disagree with its outcome.

I think madmario is pretty close there. You know how many translations there are for old texts? Like the Iliad? If I had a nickel for every different translation of that book, I'd be a very wealthy person. I translated it 3 times during my 4 years and 3 semester of Latin, and each time I translated them slightly differently. The translation of a language does take creativity and intelligence...it is not necessarily always an exact text from one language to another. In some languages this cannot be done even (I don't know if German is one of these or not).

[Executor]

I completely agree with Cybershy. If a company is making a product, make sure you don't try to release the same thing. Normal mod makers have nothing to fear from Infogrames. They're not stupid and out to get all their fans, but they do need to ensure that money keeps flowing their way.

[Guildenstern]

Originally posted by Nemo

I think madmario is pretty close there. You know how many translations there are for old texts? Like the Iliad? If I had a nickel for every different translation of that book, I'd be a very wealthy person.

The difference is that the Iliad is in the public domain, where as Civ3 is not. That is why anyone can play mozart without paying a liscence fee, and why anyone can translate aristotle, homer, or any other number of things in the public domain.

[Sparky]

OMG Yin, you make me ill. When I read you talking about a fan like that, I am glad you are no longer in the USA. What on earth has made you so bitter? Getting booted form the Air Force Academy? Speaking as someone who also had to leave his dream school I'm telling you: Get on with your life.

-------------------------------
Legal jargon shouldn't obscure the true points here or the pursuit of right and wrong:

-the community thrives because of the game's customizability.
-Modification elements were built in to the game.
-all owners of the Civilization francise have not, to my knowledge, ever objected to a user modification of the purchased product. The Microprose scenario packs even featured several user-made mods.
-In this case a fan was offering his services to Infrogrames and the Civ community, and did so knowing that a game text file was specifically "addressed to translators."
-Most people in an environment that harbors community modification would interpret an address to translators as encouragement (and therefore permission) to translate.
-his mod would only be useful for those who already had the game. Under no circumstances could the mod be used as a game in itself.

Let us examine the course of action Infogrames took, compared to what it could have taken:
-Infogrames immediatly escalated the situation into legal issues.
-Infogrames immediatly got a lawyer involved, an undertaking it could more easily afford than any teenager or twentysomething fan.

Instead, Infogrames could have:
-Written back a simple email declining the offer to help, and asking please not to modify the game.
-Heaven forbid!!! actually accepted the offer from its fan!

Let's remembr something. (Infogrames could stand to listen to this)
-the number one reason for Civ's success is its community.
-a successful game, supported by a mod community is not something a game publisher wants to ruin.
-even if the modmaker does not rant all over the fora, Infogrames has raised the question about whether any mods are legal. Since they have proven they they will take action and will cost infringers a minimum of $500 (a fee that might was well be $5000 to a teenager), they risk scaring away the mod community.
-I guerantee that in the modern age of computing, an action 3d-oriented market where TBS games face dwindling marketshare, Civ will fail without its fans. The mod community is that reason that Civ exists in the long run. Anyhting that destroys this community is bad, bad business.

Can Infogrames issue CDOs? Yes, they already have. But should they?

No.

No they should not.

There was several alternate courses of action Infogrames could have taken -- courses that would not break the preceedent for user modification, courses that would not financially and legally strike out at a fan, and courses that would not leave the mod community with fear of retribution.

I suppoert our friend and his endevours. He had no reason to believe what he was doing was wrong. Infograme's respone was far too serious.

[Jodo Kast]

Answer:

Infogrames made the mistake of releasing Civilization 3 at different times, for the SAME PLANET.

The gamer or german has no input and no say over when Infogrames releases their game to the whole planet.

In this case, they released it in the US, untested, never-played, and seriously lacking in most departments. They need the money the Holidays generate.

Since we are living on the same planet, Infogrames has to get a clue. 1.) The Internet binds us together so schedule your time a little better with your german friends. 2.) Release a game early for one country and the rest want it, so IG has to 'fight back'

and 3.) They have no tact. I've played Civ3 with the money cheat and it's actually fun, but I want to delete the game.

And it's not the gamer's fault!

[yin26]

Sparky: LOL! You crack me up. I'm living a hugely successful and happy life, thank you very much. I'm just sick of watching certain posters here bend over backwards to help modders get sued. So I encourage him with all his clear wisdom to mod the game in his native language and watch the legal papers arrive.

[Sparky]

4 minute respone time. Not bad. So honestly, Yin what are your opinions?

Law aside, should players be able to modify the game?

Laws intact, should players be able to modify the game?