German release/translation gaff

[Robert]

MarkG: luckily, my father has finished law school. free legal advice for life

any sisters left over ?
ooops. I'm going to marry already next year.......... whatever

[ravagon]

Much as I hate to both agree with Mark AND disagree with CS in one post ...

CS, if you haven't had any bad experiences with lawyers then you're very lucky. Here's some free semi-legal advice;

If the legal counsel for the opposition tells you to sign something and that if you do everything bad will go away ... DON'T do it!

If the legal counsel for the opposition tells you to sign something stating that the sky is blue ... DON'T do it!

Do not trust the word of the legal counsel for the opposition as far as you can throw him ... and you should throw him as far away as you can in any case.

And the idea of Markos with access to free legal counsel ...

[skar760]

My very subjective opinion

First of all, infogrames is absolutely right to stop the project. After all they are paying a bunch of more or less skilled translators to finish the German version. I reckon IG Germany is looking forward to selling the result to German-speaking people who have only poor knowledge of English.
To those who say let the fans do the translations: What do you think people will say if the fan-translation is faulty? The'd say why the hell did IG leave such important work to amateurs.
The problems I see here are others: Why the f... does a translation take such a long time? Even assuming they idiotically didn't start the work on the german translation before the U.S. release this is a quarter of a year. And I still do believe they were at least smart enough to start translations before the final release. So what are those translators doing all the time? Playing solitaire? I do not want to sound arrogant but more than 100,000,000 europeans in at least 5 countries have German as their mothertongue, quite a large sum of potential clients.
The other big problem is German law which puts the devastating weapon of "Abmahnung" into the hand of every legal company and every bored lawyer, which means that if e.g. you own the wrong domain name you'd better have the $500 handy. Imagine there are whole companies whose only cash flow comes from dishing out "Abmahnung"s to unprepared citizens.
The fact that IG is using this nuke will probably have caused the head of IG's public relations department going rampage: For many people the name IG will be connected to this overdosed action for a long time.
Furthermore I live in the country where most legal cases deal with picket fence hights or noisy frogs so I thought everyone here has an insurance which will pay any costs for lawyers, courts etc regardless of how ridiculous the case may be. Sad but true, if Kai had had such an insurance he would have got out of this without any costs.

skar
(checking if his insurance is still valid)

[madmario]

Originally posted by markP
Kia probably could have just go in for a consultation with an attorney and pay 50$ and get the same answer.

I believe there is a german law such that he could not.

[madmario]

Originally posted by Olaf the Bold
Query. Is it ok to produce a translation for a language that Infograms/firaxis is never going to produce, for example Welsh, Latin & Klingon.

If you acquired written permission beforehand, possibly.

-mario

[madmario]

Originally posted by CyberShy
you really do not know what's going on, do you ?

I had no idea that you read the contract, and therefore knew exactly what was going on, as opposed to me, while I languish in my ignoramusness. Of course, if you haven't read the contract, then I would reccomend against trying to understand it exactly from its title. Of course, you may have acquired your understanding from after Kai's lawyer explained it to kai. (I am being cheeky here.)

I think it is safe to say that, whlie you may feel you are right, and maybe you are right in this instance, the majority of people would disagree with you.

Originally posted by CyberShy
again: www.civ.de didn't make any costs, did they ?

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?postid=632327

Originally posted by ColdFever
this is Kai Fiebach, the receiver of the "cease and desist order". As an Apoloyton-Admin you may be interested to hear that I was not the only one to receive the order. Also our friends and webhosters from the biggest German Civ3-fansite received the identical order to remove all relevant data of the project. Those poor admins were frightened so much, that they finally signed a non-disclosure agreement to get out of this mess.

Identical, sounds, well, identical.


And, that you still didn't answer my questions yet is all fine.

Best Holliday Wishes,

-mario

[madmario]

Originally posted by SKev
The “clearly” is my opinion/conclusion based on my admittedly sparse knowledge of the facts and my own person experiences in similar circumstances. I’m sure Kai is a nice guy, but he appears to be fanatical (and I don’t mean that prejudicially) about his devotion to Civ.

What if he and a couple of friends said, "Hey, let's get together and put some of this text in german so we don't need our dictionaries every time we play -- we'll combine so we can do it really quick. This will be fun, OMG!" I am not a fanatic (I haven't played in over a week) and I might have helped on that project. I believe (I could easily be wrong) all the files were primarily textual. I don't see what's suggests fanatacism above ingenuity and good hearted free exchange of ideas.

Kai strikes me as being incredibly low key. IGG seems to have attempted to demonized him. I think he read the box and got smacked around.

Best Wishes,

-mario

[madmario]

Originally posted by ColdFever
We are allowed to play a great game, while elsewhere unfortunate people die because of hunger, frost or violence.

Oh Kai... Now I can't post about this at all without feeling like a schmuck. Of course, you must know this is all bigger than just you now. Still, I wrapped up a few replies, and I'll drop back at your behest until the new year.

A happy holliday season to you too.

Best Wishes,

-mario

[SKev]

Originally posted by madmario

I don't see what's suggests fanatacism above ingenuity and good hearted free exchange of ideas.

I think the difference is one of perception. The word was used as the source of the word "fan." I don't program and before Civ 3 never even considered downloading a MOD. The only instance I can even recall where I altered anything in a game was a character editor for Baulder's Gate II. To me, it seems to be a impossibly long and difficult task to go in and successfully alter the files of a game. Anyone who spends the time to figure out what files to change, how to change them and make sure they work has devoted far more of their time to the game than I could ever imagine doing myself.

However, even for someone very experienced, I think we can agree that the translation of the entire game is a task beyond the time/devotion/skill/desire of most MODders. The fact that IG didn't just "knock it out" is evidence (albeit weak) that the translation of the game is not a simple task. In my view, anyone who attempts to take on the translation project (in their spare time and not to sell) must really, really love the game.

Had Kai done it himself or just got together a few friends, the project probably would have gone unnoticed until it was completed and posted on various fansites. I would guess IG would have then done what Prima did to try and stop that guy who put out the $2.50 strategy guide. For that guide, "the bell can't be unrung" and that file is now out there and Prima will never be able to stop its distribution. That is a very common problem when dealing with copyright infringement and why a cease and desist letter/order (or a temporary restraining order) is the most common reaction when a violation is on the horizon.

In the end, it is a matter more of scope and money than legal rights. Copyright infringement happens all the time. A few infringing acts here and there won't get you busted. Had Kai and his pals just quietly translated the game for their own use (or to be distributed in a small circle), IG probably wouldn't have done anything. But when you publicly announce what you're doing (including the intent to freely distribute your work worldwide), the copyright holder will notice and, if in their financial interest, try and stop you. Since IG had already been working on its German translation, it was in their interest to stop Kai's project.

Kev

[jackshot]

Originally posted by skar760
First of all, infogrames is absolutely right to stop the project. After all they are paying a bunch of more or less skilled translators to finish the German version. I reckon IG Germany is looking forward to selling the result to German-speaking people who have only poor knowledge of English.

I agree 100%.

I'm sorry I have to laugh. I've been through all this before - modding, game companies, copyrights, lawsuits, the whole bit. Worse, actually, because there were third parties in the picture. Nobody won - modders lost their tools, a company trying to be helpful to modding went out of business, and the third party got nothing but legal bills.

Look, if you want to mod, the first rule is to stay out of the way of any potential revenue streams for the game company. Kai, your plan to translate flew right into this, and you should have known better.

No company will surrender money, nor should they have to to please you or the modding community. That said, their long delay in releasing in Germany is a major, major marketing mistake for this game. But you, not holding the copyright, have no control over these mistakes when their money is involved. You can't cost them money, it's that simple.

I do have sympathy for you, though, more than you think. I have been in your position.

But your second error was in informing them of your actions. It is much easier to convince someone an existing thing is not harmful than to just have them open the door and allow all the possibilties you might come up with. If a German version had been released and you improved it, I doubt the company would complain. German speakers would still buy the German version, would apply your mod, everybody happy. But by getting into this before it came out, the company can only envision how your work will shortcircuit their plans. If they allow you, with you good intentions, how can they stop a legit threat?

Mods, as anyone reading this thread has figured out by now, are a very gray legal area. Being a gray area, you cannot expect companies to spell out what you can and cannot do, especially when they are trying to open things up and allow modifcation and tinkering. Doing a favor for the gamers can get them into some hot water, why should they take the risk? An important point has been made elsewhere in the thread - their copyright is only as good as the efforts they made to enforce it. And anything other than a blanket "no to anything" can be legally like trying to set up a Maginot Line - somebody will figure out the end run to the enforcement, the company will slip up in the language somewhere, and the companies' own terms will be used to cut into the sales. Lots of clever modders out there.

A company like IG does not want to get into this. As modders we don't want to get into this because we need good faith. When their hand is forced, they will most always blanket ban because anything else gets too argumentative.

And the bad news is that I've seen these situations spiral out of control. Guy oversteps the line and affects the market, company unloads to assert copyright, community bristles at the draconian measures just like everyone's doing, company gets paranoid because of all the bad faith floating around and becomes hellbent on closing loopholes. Tools removed or broken, policies enforced vigorously, no fun.

But the real fools are the ones shocked, yes shocked, that a company would react this way. It's a real world out there, wake up. I WOULD LIKE TO REMIND EVERYONE THAT WE DO NOT HAVE THE EDITING TOOLS WE WOULD LIKE, ONLY SOME VAGUE PROMISES OF FUTURE PATCHES. PUSHING THIS ISSUE, GETTING RIGHTOUS ABOUT IT, THREATENING BAD FAITH, AND CALLING THE COMPANY NAMES FOR PROTECTING THEIR COPYRIGHT - well, you figure it out.

Idiots. You'll ruin it for all of us with your causes. You want to help the community? Shut up and create.

[ColdFever]

Well, I was decided not to post anymore before Christmas onto this thread, but as the threads lengthens it appears that more and more people think we German translation project members must have been fools, so please allow me some words:

Yes, we made a mistake - thinking that an increased sale of Civ3 would have helped everybody and make everybody happy: more money to them and a larger fanbase to us. That was the basic error.

Here the top 3 points regarding this:

- we saw the translation project as a chance to sell loads of Civ3 copies in Germany before Christmas, the most important selling time of the year. I know of dealers who did stick the address our translation homepage right beside the game pile. Now probably more people buy "Empire Earth", already fully translated into German language

- we saw the translation project as a chance to gain a large loyal fan base, as it is just great for everyone to help a project when you see your proposals finding the way to the next release. You just feel for a game if you are able to be of a little help getting it together. The enthusiastic feedback we received sounded like: "finally we get a really good translation cause we all together can make it perfect, this will be 'our' game and we will recommend it to everybody"

- we saw the translation project as a good PR for the game. In fact it even turned out to became quiet HUGE. We coupled the project with a donation call for UNICEF and this way we got an enormous response, even from "serious" magazines. One day before we got the deadly call from Infogrames even the most important Germany TV channel wanted to feature Civ3 and the project. I believe at the end this could have been a marketing campaign worth quite a mentionable financial amount (besides doing something good for people in need).

Saying all this, I do believe the true reason for the interdiction of the project was NOT an expected drop in sales - everybody with a clear eye should see that a huge successful campaign like this would have caused the entire opposite effect, "even" if some more US copies would have be sold as usually.

IMHO the true reason for the interdiction was plain fear:
- fear to lose control (to the fans)
- fear to lose jobs (fans do some of the work)
- fear to lose face (a dozen of fans is faster than 1 or 2 professionals)

And - I can understand that. And if I had known the fact before that Infogrames Germany is on its own from a management point of view and does not gain any revenue from selling US versions I would probably have thought otherwise of the project in the first place - but we just did not know that (and our questions via email and publisher forum nobody answered).

But - IMHO every fear above could have been handled:
- you only lose control if you cannot rely on your partners
- no translator would have been superfluous as we clearly stated right from the start that we would appreciate the help of the official translators, as the project was huge (and still much work was left to be done the moment when our work was stopped)
- it should be obvious that a good translation also comprehends a manual and more, and this is a task the fans cannot handle (and don't want to) and many people are willing to pay for

I am still pretty convinced that every party would have benefited from a successful cooperation. But you have to risk something to gain something.

On our part we risked an interdiction and the loss of dozens of working hours. But I love Civ3 (although I still prefer SMAC), I admire the work of S.M. (my game dream would be a modernized "covert action") and I think Civ3 is about people with brains - so I thought the risk was worth it. That I also would lose quiet a lot of money while having lots of trouble I did not foresee and not thought of, as we wanted to play fair and square right from the start and never intended to do anything against any objection from Infogrames or Firaxis.

But other people probably did not want to take any risk, as they probably thought about risking their business. Of course these fears are fully understandable (even though I do not share them) as fears are just elemental and we are human after all. Alas, in this case IMHO the fears did lead to some very unfortunate decisions I never would have thought possible - and I doubt anybody would do for a second time.

But done is done - we just can't help it anymore. At least the affair has been a very instructive (but expensive) lesson to all parties. Now we just have to pull ourselves out of the swamp.

[jackshot]

Originally posted by ColdFever
But done is done - we just can't help it anymore. At least the affair has been a very instructive (but expensive) lesson to all parties. Now we just have to pull ourselves out of the swamp.

Beautifully written reply.

I did not in any way mean the mod creators were fools; quite the opposite, your post shows how hard it is to know the right thing to do. The bandwagons are where the fools hang out, it's those doomsday scenarios and wild claims of threats to us all that solidify the sides and remove middle of the road solutions.

But even these are predictable, and you do have to blame IG for this at some level. Managing this is their job, it is how they justify their profit on Firaxis' work. It is so foolish to just have the natural exuberance of their fans, behaving in a rational and creative manner, throw such a monkey wrench into things. It's not like "modding for Civ - how did that get in there?" - IG knew or should have known this was going to be an issue - the whole franchise is about modding for christsakes - they had months to prepare, and all they could come up with was "we'll sue the bastards."

The real loss here is that the mod probably would have been excellent. IG could have had the sales, the word of mouth, the whole bit if they had just played their cards well at all, no matter if the game was rushed or not rushed. There are thousands of people waiting here to promote their product with all their ability and they can't tap it because of some interdepartmental carpet weaving.

Sheesh, it's a game. Let the people play. It's really not that complicated. Really.

[Dreifels]

Originally posted by Gramphos
See this quote from the license. Note my boldtype
[...]

According to this license is all editing of civ3mod.bic illegal, also changing the graphics and modifying them should be illegal. And this in a game made for moding.

BTW: Could someone explain what they mean with "create derivative work from"

Oh, and I cant understand why they don't allow translations to be made. If anyone could come up with a good reason...

Well, this a difficult problem in German law is. Unfortunately, the translaters feared any conflict and had been so impressed by the lawer's letter, that they had underwritten all. (and it wasn't necessary to do it)
But in German law the licence rules are invalid in that text version, and the translation is/was legal. And the copy right *so* doesn't exist in Germany like in US. But to see and understand that they had needed a *very* good lawer having experience with that field of law.

But they simply feared the risk for the amount. It was if someone stands before you with a gun and says "undersign". And you stop thinking and asking one with experience and you sign. (And if you had thought about it you would have seen that that gun was not a right gun and he never could shot you.)

The background simple is, that Infogrames fears that they will have reduced turnover if all can use that translation for the US version before the German version is out.

So, if one had downloaded that project when it was able at the site, he sstill can publish it. The only restriction now existing is, that the original transpater(s) have signed that '*they* will continue publish it. All other who have nothing signed, can do it.

[Ecthy]

Kaum zu glauben, dass es Spasten gibt, die sich immer noch über diesen Piss aufregen...

Da wir sowieso alle nur Online-Namen sind gibt es so gut wie gar keine Chance irgendjemandem in Person was anzuhängen wenn er über seinen Nickname ein ModPack rausbringt.

Kai muss sich ziemlich prasslig angestellt haben, wenn die ihn tatsächlich bei den Eiern haben.

[ColdFever]

Originally posted by Ecthelion
Kai muss sich ziemlich prasslig angestellt haben, wenn die ihn tatsächlich bei den Eiern haben.

this is Kai: the project started in the german Infogrames-Civ3-Forum and was conceived right from the beginning to use frankness and honesty. Before the start I offered Infogrames a cooperation, since we thought they would be interested in higher Christmas sales figures of the official US version sold in Germany. Even if our frankness finally did not pay off I think it was right - but of course with hindsight everybody knows it better... (including me)

Kai hier: das Projekt hat im deutschen Infogrames-Civ3-Forum begonnen und war von Anfang an auf Offenheit und Ehrlichkeit bedacht - vor dem Start bot ich Infogrames eine Kooperation an, schließlich dachten wir, sie wären an einem höheren Weihnachtsverkauf der offiziell in Deutschland verkauften US-Version interessiert. Selbst wenn unsere Offenheit letztlich nicht honoriert wurde, so halte ich sie für richtig - aber natürlich weiss es im Nachhinein jeder besser... (ich eingeschlossen)

http://www.infogrames.de/ubb/Forum18/HTML/000006.html

But done is done - we just can't help it anymore and so it is really better now to forget about it.

Merry Christmas!