German release/translation gaff

[yin26]

Hey, I'm about to head out for lunch, so I might be late on the next replies! LOL. Just kidding. God, most days my work doesn't keep me busy enough. I 'should' be using that time to study Korean more, but I digress.

My opinion has always been this:

First, communication is the beginning and the end. If you don't want certain things to be modded but other things are o.k., etc., then communicate that openly, professionally, promptly and productively. What IG did is an absolute low point in this industry, if you ask me. Even if I agree with their concerns, their lack of communication and then ensuing bullying deserves a Consumer Advocate group to get involved. Honestly, I think IG could be counter-sued for harrassment given the lack of proper communication on the issue.

That aside, modding will make or break Civ3 (and a ton of other games). And for Firaxis to remain quiet while IG puts a bullet in the head of modders (in Firaxis' name no less!) is akin to basically saying: 'We never really cared about this game or the fans in the first place. Let them get pounded legally for trying to make our half-wit product better.' Honestly, unless the fans here are given full reign to mod Civ3, it will die within a year. No doubts.

So I hope you understand my bitterness on the way this was handled. Do you yet see a statement of clarification on Civ3.com as to what can be safely modded? And what kind of nightmare is this that we now need to consult our laywers before trying to make a broken game better?

Either way, it's the lack of communication and ensuing arrogance/belligerance that honestly, truly makes me want to see the day both Firaxis and IG have to close their doors. Yes, I have a happy, good life. And yes, I want to see Firaxis and IG go out of business.

The two are not mutually exclusive.

[Kaak]

Infograms is hypocritical and evil. INFOGRAMS: PLEASE READ.

eek...

[Kevin Ar18]

Originally posted by ColdFever
...

Yes. the 10000$ penalty now is due for every MOD I would do of Civ3 or I would support or encourage to distribute.

Does this mean you can't create any MODs for Civ3 (like units, cities, terrain, etc...) or support them?
Or were they just speaking of translation MODs?

[Kaak]

i'm sorry, but this is the most rediculous thing i have ever seen. I think ig just doesn't know anything about civ. they don't know that its intrigue and lasting playability are based on fan mods. Firaxis knows this...too bad they don't communicate

[Avahz_D]

Originally posted by MarkG
First of files, i dont think there is any kind of issue with the strategy forum

As for the files, we contacted Firaxis yesterday, sending them the url of the files forum and asking them to notify us if there is a illegal file.
We have not recieved any note from Firaxis or Infogrames that there is an illegal file on our site.

OPPS,

Isnt that the same thing that other site did? Just asking for it there MarkG.....

[Dr. Nick]

Originally posted by Kevin Ar18


Does this mean you can't create any MODs for Civ3 (like units, cities, terrain, etc...) or support them?
Or were they just speaking of translation MODs?

It means that if IG happens to run out of money they can go out and hunt all the modders down and take away all their money because they cannot alter the game at all withouth infringing copyright.

FUKC INFOGRAMES! Just as well I got the game off Kazaa... and a ruddy game too!

[madmario]

Originally posted by Guildenstern


The difference is that the Iliad is in the public domain, where as Civ3 is not.

Of course. Ostensibly, though, this game is designed to be modified however you wish. My objection was not in this area, but to the idea that translations had no artistic merit, and were somehow merely technical.

I actually study and deal with translations, so I had a bit of a personal beef here.

-mario

[Rasputin]

i beleive the analagy used above of translating a BOUGHT copy of a book into BRAILLE for the blind is a good one, why whould someone have t opay twice for the same thing. If Infogrammes wants to make more money charge for the Mods and maps people are making as that uses their game but adds to it. Whilst a translation is jsut the same game but in different language.

I dont beleive the yshould charge for any changes mind you , but I think that soon they will be wanting to release sceanrio disc and tthen they will clamp down on modders big time....

[madmario]

Originally posted by Executor
I completely agree with Cybershy. If a company is making a product, make sure you don't try to release the same thing. Normal mod makers have nothing to fear from Infogrames. They're not stupid and out to get all their fans, but they do need to ensure that money keeps flowing their way.

Some people object to their methods here much more than their principle.

Some people object to how they are currently handling the issue.

Some people object to ambiguity of the legal language involved, including what is advertised vs the papers served.

None of this collides with your points, but they are valid reasons to severely criticise IG.

-mario

[Defkon]

i just bought civ3, and it's my first civ game, so i'm new here. This definetly caught my eye. I had no knowledge of the translation project before this, so i've got a couple of questions and concerns on the stance of "mods".

I've made "mods" for a number of other games, mostly First Person shooters, mostly the rainbow 6 series from redstorm, who have been rather large supporters of "mods". In fact many of the head project leaders of the retail game that (gasp) actually frequented their forums, actually provided help, advice, ect to me both via the board and email. Point is that never have i heard the redstorm staff take legal action against any of it's mod community. In fact most companies bend over backwards to aid good mods.

So i find this rather puzzeling that copywrite infringment is being lobied as a means to prevent a mod.

Legally i didn't quite see an issue about a translation project because i thought "well wouldn't they want their game to available to a larger market aka more $$" why wouldn't they want germans to play thier game?

The Harry Potter analogy was indeed a very poor one. You see, by translating the book, it means that you wouldn't need the book itself, that the translation was a "stand alone" product that would compete directly with the retail product. But a "MOD" by definetion NEEDS the original product in order to be operable. For example if you downloaded say the "counter-strike" mod for Half-life, it wouldn't be of any use to you unless you had already bought Half-life.

Now this project apearnetly does interfere with a something that infogames wants to sell. Honestly i'm not familiar with how international sales work for games, and i'll assume that different parts of a company sell the game to different regions. I would've figured that all the sales of a game would go to some central distrubiting thingy. But i guess that's not the case. Aperantly there's alot of middle men involved that all want a piece of the action and rather than each of them getting a "cut" of the pie, apearently they all have to fend for themselves.


My concerns as a possible modder are "just what's ok" where is the line drawn. We can say that this is an obvious line because translation isn't a "typical" mod, but scenarios, ect. Many companies usually make an "add-on" of some sort eventually like extra maps, or characters, but they don't go around attacking mods that make "maps" or other elements in general.

But if someone made a "MOD" that let you download the levels, weapons or something from say "blue shift" (a retail half-life add-on) for free then i could see how this could be considered an offense of Copywrite.

What the letter fails to do is to make the depiction of just what is considered a mod, and what's considered an infringment of copywrite. This is because they use an analogy to describe a legal matter. Analogy's are good for polotics because they let you have lots of "space" to backup if you need to change your tune, but they are not acceptable in legal matters. There needs to be definitive RULES in place, and not a "give us a phone call" before doing anything policy.

To a modder that type of policy is akin to (yes i'm using an analogy requiring a person to call his or her local and state police to ask them if it's ok to drive before they can go anywhere.

Now honestly i don't think there's a problem with the average joe making a mod that adds or changes units to something orginal, and if that mod does somehow tick off the company, the company should first ask that person not to make that mod, and EXACTLY what it is that they are taking offense to and how to rectifiy it. IF then after numerous attempts for the company to reach the person not vice versa go with out a resolution then there should be some legal action.

But going to a legal action right away is totally un-called for. To many, including myself going for your lawyer is the equivlient of pulling a gun on someone and enforcing your dictations by threat alone. To put it bluntly, it's not "civilized". And even if no financial attack was commited you still crossed a serious line, and apearently done so without much consideration.

Bottom line is: while although they were in the right to protect there assests as they saw fit, they did so in an improper manner, and will need to work hard on the PR end to reduce or eliminate the image of a "gun wielding hick" which they have labled themselves as.

[Red.Damage]

Originally posted by Executor
I completely agree with Cybershy. If a company is making a product, make sure you don't try to release the same thing. Normal mod makers have nothing to fear from Infogrames. They're not stupid and out to get all their fans, but they do need to ensure that money keeps flowing their way.

Well, they never wanted to release the whole game nor wanted they to sell the translation! Their translation was only helfpful and usable for someone who already bought the game. Furthermore they offered their translation to IG: If IG gave a certain (unknown) amount to a charity IG might have used the transaltion as they wanted.

And tell me one thing: Why does IG depend on selling german games? Why can't they agree with Firaxis on a basis like "games sold in Germany" (no matter what their language is)?

[Nemo]

Originally posted by Guildenstern


The difference is that the Iliad is in the public domain, where as Civ3 is not. That is why anyone can play mozart without paying a liscence fee, and why anyone can translate aristotle, homer, or any other number of things in the public domain.

yeah its public...but i was trying to say that there are so many different translations of it becuase translation is not definate, and is artistic depending on the interpreter the translation will differ. music notes are universal and are read the same everywhere (that i know of...but i am not big into music, so i could be wrong with my reasoning) so i dont think that is a fair comparision for anything other then the fact that it is public, thus free.

[Trifna]

I have made a thread out of it, so here is the thread back:


Quoted from Apolyton News which was quoting IG (Infogrames):

quote:

: If someone has plans to change or otherwise use sections of the product, the appropriate person or group of the owner of the rights or a legal agency (in this case Infogrames) must let themselves be given a written permission



I MAY have got all false, withmy English that isn'tperfect...
But let me look to this... So if we're 500 modders (and I guess we're more) we need to call them?? Did I got it right? This is like asking Starcraft mapmakers to call Blizzard each time they're drawing a map...

I guess they don't INTEND to use this against all modders, but it just could legally be done.

I know they're puting this to avoid anyone that would pass the limits (which I accept), but they should restrict this rule. For now, I wonder if they could ask for the right to take what would have been made by a modder by saying that it was made on their stuff and just use what the modder would have done and put rights on it... If they can do that, then I just say that their rule is not exact and should be tweakened...

Or, other way, they could give a list of things that they automatically accept. For exemple, changes made on government type files, or units, or else. Their main goal is to avoid someone that would give problems to oneof their productsby using one of their products.

[Robert]

I was the Vice President of The Riddler's Club (www.riddlersclub.com) for about 2 years. One day the pres and me got a notification from a lawner from the company that has copyright on "The Riddler" and he told us to cease using their products.

All we did was returning a question what he exactly meant.
we never heard anything anymore.

we could've done this as well:
1. hire a lawyer
2. treath the company
3. insult the company

but we didn't, and we didn't lose any money.
So far your assumtpions that I've never experienced something like this. THE difference is that we handled the incident with wisdom and respect to the company.

The editor is a part of the game, you can use a programm: THE EDITOR to change the game. That's something different then changing files with any external editor. DO YOU UNDERSTAND THAT ?

I'm sure nobody will sue you if you change text files and so on, and I'm sure I won't be sued if I make a dutch translation of the game and spread it as a free mod. But I know that they are allowed to do in that case, but they just can't be arsed to.

But this time someone was going to release a german version of the game by altering game files WHILE they were going to release such a version themselves. Then they can be arsed, since they'll lose profit in that case.

If using the editor = changing the game
then saving a game = changing the game as well.

don't be silly.
Just stop with your "I hate IG thus everything they do is wrong" way of thinking.

And I simply have no respect for people that start to yell, insult and treath when things aren't going to way they expected.

[vihutuo]

IMHO changing anything with the editor is legal but changing any file directly can be trouble