Announcement

**yin26** · November 27, 2001, 20:54

Yes, once again Firaxis has done an excellent job explaining itself.

**madmario** · November 27, 2001, 21:52

I agree with you about Firaxis in isolation, Markos. I just don't think anyone can, or should, trust Infogrames -- and because of their paired inability/whatever reason for inaction, Firaxis.

Sadly, friendly Firaxis -isn't- the one handing out early Christmas court-appearance-sign-now-or-be@$%&#'d presents.

I do disagree with you about a reassurance being useful. I don't think it is politco-economically viable. Certainly, any such public assurance could complicate Infogrames lawsuit. If it were genuine, it ould have to and only could. It would be exceedingly useful.

Of course people will make mods anyways. "That only happened in Germany after all. Not here. No way here."

yeeeah.

I think people should be quite careful until they are somehow officially reassured from Infogrames as to what IG will sue over and what they won't. Of course IG won't hem themselves in like that, so all modders basically do so at their own risk.

-mario

**Dan Magaha FIRAXIS** · November 27, 2001, 21:57

Originally posted by habitualuser
And firaxis' response is real great, "well it has nothing to do with our web site so....."

Maybe I didn't make myself clear; I apologize if that was confusing. That wasn't any kind of official company response, it was mine, in response to people inquiring as to why I hadn't commented on the situation.

Dan

**madmario** · November 27, 2001, 22:32

Originally posted by yin26
Yes, once again Firaxis has done an excellent job explaining itself.

They're pretty much in the Kobayashi Maru.

-mario

**MarkG** · November 28, 2001, 04:16

Originally posted by madmario
I do disagree with you about a reassurance being useful

and what could Firaxis say while the lawsuit is still going on?
"hey guys, we love it that you do all these maps and mods and feel free to do them, but you know, we have this partner who may act on his own and decide to go after you cause someone in their marketing department thought they are loosing sales" ?????
that wouldnt be very reassuring to me...

so unless the legal issue is settled(and in a positive way, e.g. Kai doesnt pay anything nor is he claimed responsible for any future sales losses), then any kind of assurement by firaxis (alone) that "everything is just fine" wouldnt make much of a difference.

bottom line, as a public issue, this was started by infogrames and can only end by infogrames.

**yin26** · November 28, 2001, 04:25

Here's what Firaxis should do:

"Hey, did you hear about what Infogrames is doing to Kai, that guy in Germany?"

"Yes, I'm on the phone right now, those Infogrames bastards: 'Um, yes, hello. This is Sid at Firaxis. Let me talk to the legal department handling Civ3."

"Legal Department"

"This is Sid. Hey, heard about the German thing. I'm not happy about how you guys did it, but let just clarify: What, exactly, will Infogrames let the public modify? You have set a very bad precedence for this Civ3 title, guys. Very bad. I want the fans to know what's o.k. and what's not from your legal departement."

"Well, Sid, [explanation]."

"Fax me that in writing please."

"Sure."

Next day, a complete explanation of what we can and cannot mod is posted on Civ3.com

Instead, Firaxis just pretends not to be involved. That makes them just as guilty in my opinion.

**ColdFever** · November 28, 2001, 05:33

Originally posted by MarkG
bottom line, as a public issue, this was started by infogrames and can only end by infogrames.

Hi Mark,
this is Kai Fiebach, the receiver of the "cease and desist order". As an Apoloyton-Admin you may be interested to hear that I was not the only one to receive the order. Also our friends and webhosters from the biggest German Civ3-fansite received the identical order to remove all relevant data of the project. Those poor admins were frightened so much, that they finally signed a non-disclosure agreement to get out of this mess.

Since that day the mood in the german community is spoiled, as every fansite admin is also scared to receive mail from the lawyers if not behaving properly. So no more news on the killed project are posted anywhere and in the only relevant german Civ3-forum every thread regarding this "forbidden issue" is deleted or closed at once.

On advice of my lawyer I finally did also sign the order to protect me and my family to get out of the mess without further legal procedures. Because of this now I face a 10.000$ penalty for ANY modification of Civ3 or supporting them.

**MarkG** · November 28, 2001, 05:39

Originally posted by yin26
Here's what Firaxis should do:

...

Instead, Firaxis just pretends not to be involved. That makes them just as guilty in my opinion.

only thing, what you suggested for firaxis to do equals to firaxis NOT being involved in the making of decisions and Sid acting as an infogrames secretary. so if firaxis is pretending to not be involved, you're suggesting that they are not involved(but this time at a public level)?

somehow i would expect you to suggest that Sid should make a public demand for the removal of infogrames' legal troops from Kai's territory

**MarkG** · November 28, 2001, 05:44

Originally posted by ColdFever
Hi Mark,
this is Kai Fiebach, the receiver of the "cease and desist order". As an Apoloyton-Admin you may be interested to hear that I was not the only one to receive the order. Also our friends and webhosters from the biggest German Civ3-fansite received the identical order to remove all relevant data of the project. Those poor admins were frightened so much, that they finally signed a non-disclosure agreement to get out of this mess.

Since that day the mood in the german community is spoiled, as every fansite admin is also scared to receive mail from the lawyers if not behaving properly. So no more news on the killed project are posted anywhere and in the only relevant german Civ3-forum every thread regarding this "forbidden issue" is deleted or closed at once.

On advice of my lawyer I finally did also sign the order to protect me and my family to get out of the mess without further legal procedures. Because of this now I face a 10.000$ penalty for ANY modification of Civ3 or supporting them.

hi Kai, thank you for the information and the update

So, to clarify, you signed the order, payed the $500 legal fee, and under this agreement you are facing a 10000$ penalty for any further involvement?
And the same was done by how many more people?

**ColdFever** · November 28, 2001, 06:02

Originally posted by MarkG
to clarify, you signed the order, payed the $500 legal fee, and under this agreement you are facing a 10000$ penalty for any further involvement?
And the same was done by how many more people?

The legal fee was not $500, it was about $850. But Infogrames signaled to take over this amount for their lawyers to show goodwill. The identical amount of course I have to pay for my lawyer, according to the German table of lawyer fees. The other c&d-order to the fansite admins was replaced by a non-disclosure agreement after they fulfilled certain core demands.

Yes. the 10000$ penalty now is due for every MOD I would do of Civ3 or I would support or encourage to distribute.

**MarkG** · November 28, 2001, 06:23

Originally posted by ColdFever
The legal fee was not $500, it was about $850. But Infogrames signaled to take over this amount for their lawyers to show goodwill. The identical amount of course I have to pay for my lawyer, according to the German table of lawyer fees. The other c&d-order to the fansite admins was replaced by a non-disclosure agreement after they fulfilled certain core demands.

Yes. the 10000$ penalty now is due for every MOD I would do of Civ3 or I would support or encourage to distribute.

i see. thanks again for the information...

**EEKthedog** · November 28, 2001, 07:09

Every civ lover is saddened by this, and i am sure everyone wishes the best for you Kai, and the other guys who got involved in this too.

Now here's a question: Would Infrogames Germany lose more money if they let some guys make a translation, or lose more money now becoming well known as being bastards.

**EEKthedog** · November 28, 2001, 07:15

Oh, and i forgot to say: In my opinion the blame should be on Firaxis and Infrogames, especially the lack of communication concerning what is allowed and what isn't. This created the whole mess where the customers were the victims not knowing what is and what is not allowed to do.

If civ3 (firaxis) is so well known, advertised and promoted as being a mod-able game, and infrogames does not allow any of this it isn't hardly surprising some things will go horribly wrong.

**yin26** · November 28, 2001, 07:32

In my opinion the blame should be on Firaxis and Infrogames, especially the lack of communication concerning what is allowed and what isn't.

Exactly. Markos, take note. This is what I am saying. So what if Firaxis didn't make the decision, it is their duty and common sense to make some clarifications to the fans as to what can be safely done.

By their not doing that, they have dropped to one of the lowest levels in the industry, IMO. Frankly, I hope they go out of business soon. Won't likely happen, but I'd love to see it. Honestly. This is not me just shooting off my mouth. I'll celebrate the day Firaxis shuts its incompetent, arrogant doors.

Kai:

You should know, many of us here are very sad at all this. You have our support, whatever that means. Frankly, you guys in Germany should burn your disks and send them back to Infogrames in small coffins.

**Kolyana** · November 28, 2001, 07:37

So, let me get this right ... we can mod the game, but the German's can't?

Will Infogames be releasing this in the necessary files to make the distinction?

What will happen is an American based site encourages German modders to post there? Will Infogames then slap a writ on them also?

Is this set to spread?

Announcement

German release/translation gaff

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