The random generator HAS to be broken

[GodSpawn]

I shouldn't have said "out of a group of 1000", I should have said "out of a group of unknown size" - sorry about that.

What I mean to say is that, if you don't know the sample size, you can't draw any real conclusions.

But can we have a guess at the sample size? I'm going to have a go, and I'm purposely going to err on the side of yielding a lower sample size:

Suppose that, out of all the people who read this forum, only 100 are going to post about something unlikely happening. Further suppose that they have each played for 10 hours, i.e. 1,000 game hours altogether.

Now we have to guess how many combats have occured in those 1,000 hours. Let's say that it works out at 20 combats an hour. (That may be really far too low - sometimes I have 50 different units involved in combat PER TURN.)

Anyway, that gives a sample size of 20,000. If you had 2 occurances of a 1 in 10,000 result, you wouldn't be surprised.

In fact, the sample size would almost certainly be much larger - at least 100,000 individual combats. You WILL see some very unusual results with sample sets that large.

[TCO]

Originally posted by LaRusso
can we award venger a 'whiner of the year' award, please? he produces 2,37 whining threads a day

It sure looks like lost battles is his concern more than realism. I think all kids in school hit him in the face in dodgeball too much. He's got a permanent cry instinct.

[SuiteSisterMary]

But can we have a guess at the sample size? I'm going to have a go, and I'm purposely going to err on the side of yielding a lower sample size:

Easily. How many turns are in a Civ3 game that goes to 2050? Assume, for the sake of argument, 5 battles per turn. That gives you your sample size. Then, note the number of (seemingly) improbably actions.

Hells, if they ever put out a map editor that lets you do it, make a map with 1000 legions standing beside 1000 warriors, and make sure it's your turn first.

The other problem, of course, is that we don't know the real combat equasions and all of the variables. For example, it's alluded to that spear/pike units have bonuses against horse units, which they should. But, for example, should they against calvary? Or, legions SHOULD have a bonus against bow units. Do they?

[Venger]

Originally posted by GP
It sure looks like lost battles is his concern more than realism. I think all kids in school hit him in the face in dodgeball too much. He's got a permanent cry instinct.

Another fawning Civ3 coçkgobbler. I lose battles all the time. But I should lose them to poorly designed units.

You're another one who usually doesn't have anything to add to a thread but ignorance, stupid squat-to-pee simpleton.

Venger

[korn469]

Venger

i do think that you are onto something, however:

Another fawning Civ3 coçkgobbler. I lose battles all the time. But I should lose them to poorly designed units.
You're another one who usually doesn't have anything to add to a thread but ignorance, stupid squat-to-pee simpleton.

that is uncalled for, and mark's patience will run out long before you actually change anyone's mind

i have lost far too many battleships when attacking ironclads to know that everything is completely kosher with the combat system in civ3

SuiteSisterMary

i think you are over estimating the number of battles that the average player engages in...i have played over ten games of civ3 and my longest lasting game went to 1936

but what is there something like 500 turns in civ3? most players don't fight every turn

so i would say the average player engages in between 750-2,000 battles per full game

[TCO]

Venge, all the points to be made...have been made. Don't you even get sick of listening to yourself whine. Anyway, there's a couple of threads that aren't devoted to your whines. Maybe you could start some more complaint about setback threads and take over the whole front page.

[Pyrodrew]

Originally posted by GP
Venge, all the points to be made...have been made. Don't you even get sick of listening to yourself whine.

Unfortunately, I don't think he does.

[Setsuna]

It would be poetic justice if all of the people who call posters like Venger "whiners" were to find themselves unable to download the upcoming patch (And it's accompanying improvements.)

[nato]

I have one thing to say about the "streaks". I'm a heavy artillery type, like 30 of them or so. I have noticed that sometimes my artillery is just dead on, like 15 or so hits in a row. Other times, they couldn't hit a barn, like 15 or so misses in a row.

Usually results are more mixed, and this is just anecdotal. But I did notice it more than once.

Now my tale of woe! Someone has to hear about it - it may as well be you!

My cool Legionary Army, consisting of 2 veterans and 1 elite, with 12 out of 13 hit points. In an attempt to persuade the Greeks of the advantages of a Greco-Roman union, they attack a fortified regular Hoplite, defending a size 2 city on grassland. The Hoplite had 3 of 3 hit points.

My Legion Army lost! I expected to be damaged, even damaged a lot, but my Army got killed! Oohhh talk about an unlucky streak - I had to lose at best 12 out of 14 battles for that to happen. I think I was at a 3 to 4.125 disadvantage. The Hoplite should have won 58% of the battles, not 86%.

I know its just one incident ... it just seemed signifigant to me since, being an army, it took a longer series of bad luck to happen.

[Excelsior]

Originally posted by nato
My cool Legionary Army, consisting of 2 veterans and 1 elite, with 12 out of 13 hit points. In an attempt to persuade the Greeks of the advantages of a Greco-Roman union, they attack a fortified regular Hoplite, defending a size 2 city on grassland. The Hoplite had 3 of 3 hit points.

My Legion Army lost! I expected to be damaged, even damaged a lot, but my Army got killed! Oohhh talk about an unlucky streak - I had to lose at best 12 out of 14 battles for that to happen. I think I was at a 3 to 4.125 disadvantage. The Hoplite should have won 58% of the battles, not 86%.

I know its just one incident ... it just seemed signifigant to me since, being an army, it took a longer series of bad luck to happen.

Well, that's another 2.4% probability event.

[Pyrodrew]

Originally posted by Setsuna
It would be poetic justice if all of the people who call posters like Venger "whiners" were to find themselves unable to download the upcoming patch (And it's accompanying improvements.)

You need to learn the difference between those who can give constructive criticism & "whiners"... then you will be able to use the term "poetic justice" correctly.

But here is a simple riddle for you... what would you call someone who endlessly calls a game "broken" & yet continues to play it?

[Setsuna]

Please do not patronize me, the usage of that phrase was not in error.

Your perception that Venger is whining merely comes from his lack of civility. Do you really believe that his hostile temperament somehow invalidates his issues with the game? You should also probably get over the fact that some people will be angry when they unknowingly make a transaction that results in paying for an unfinished product. You might argue that poor tact and angry posts will result in lessened chances of garnering support and attention. However, Firaxis would likely be shooting themselves in the foot for ignoring such concerns just because of unfavorable presentation.

Neither should the quantity of his complaints somehow lessen their importance. Whether or not the game is finished does not matter now that the game is released. This means development has entered a phase where the amount of time available has been greatly reduced. Since Firaxis is still working on the game right now it is all the more crucial that any problems with the game come to light, and fast. Firaxis will not be working on the game forever, and as such it is important to bring to light as many issues early on as possible. If quirks, even little ones, are only found later on it runs too great a risk of being shrugged off and never addressed.

[Venger]

Originally posted by korn469
Venger

i do think that you are onto something, however:



that is uncalled for, and mark's patience will run out long before you actually change anyone's mind

What's uncalled for are the ad hominem attacks - I am tired of the schoolgirl rockthrowers who don't bring anything into the thread but their pantywaist comments about those of us playing and discussing the game. Note they don't actually talk about the post, simply piss and moan because their sacred ox is getting gored.

If Mark has a problem, I suggest he carefully follow the thread to see who starts this nonsense. GP wrote the check, and I cashed it.

i have lost far too many battleships when attacking ironclads to know that everything is completely kosher with the combat system in civ3

I doubled hit points so now I'm seeing less of it. I still think the number generator may have issues and the combat values are not properly done. The hit points aren't perfect but simply doubling them has made combat a much more realistic event.

Venger

[Venger]

Originally posted by GP
Venge, all the points to be made...have been made.

Have all the points been made? Could you compile and post a list so we can check it before hand? I have commented about many, many different aspects of the combat, and this is the first time I've posted a topic regarding the apparent streakiness of the random number generator. Of course, rather than read the post and contribute anything insightful, you apparently like to break out into an itchy rash any time anyone who still has their lobes connected dares question how something works in the game...

Don't you even get sick of listening to yourself whine.

I sure get sick of listening to you whine, do your panties have a little cotton liner? Cause you sure act like a simpering girl.

Anyway, there's a couple of threads that aren't devoted to your whines. Maybe you could start some more complaint about setback threads and take over the whole front page.

What's truly pathetic about you is that the forum page shows who posted the thread and who responded last, but rather than avoid these threads, you go in looking to throw a rock and run. What's tiring is not people complaining or commenting on the game, it's people who's only contribution to these boards is complaing or commenting on the people...

Jerk.

Venger

[Venger]

Originally posted by Pyrodrew

Unfortunately, I don't think he does.

Oh good here's another off topic unsolicited comment. Hey dork, do you have any insight into the combat generator, or are you here to hang out with the other wallflowers? You unwrapped that present of overpowering ignorance early I see...

Another fanboy who can't ignore threads or topics without a snide feckless comment not about the topic, but about the posters...

Venger