The random generator HAS to be broken

[Venger]

I've modified all the hit points in the game double - and adjusted the ROF for artillery to try and keep pace.

Anyways, I attack a french veteran pikeman on open terrain with my elite cavalry (9/10 hit points).

So this is 6 vs. 3.

The cavalry lost every round, and retreated at his last point. That's EIGHT consecutive rounds of combat lost. At a 33% chance to lose, that's .33^8. Or .014%.

Ignoring the cavalry versus pikemen debate, the numbers just don't match. The unit had just landed from a ship, so no defensive modifier for fortification and he was on your average turf...

There is something in the combat generator that results in ridiculously long strings of numbers, or that incorrectly applies numbers during combat. That's a 1 in 7000 chance. Something is rotten in Denmark indeed.

I know others have seen similary "streak" results that bely logic at times. Anyone have any concrete examples or thoughts on it?

Venger

[Kenjura]

here's a concrete example.

In my current game (monarch as egypt), Rome (the big bad-ass to the east) asked me to declare war on the iroquois. All I could really do, lacking naval units, was attack a single size 1 city on my peninsula. I sent 5 archers at the city, which was defended by two archers.

I saved the game, fearing the worst, then attacked. It was the worst. All five archers were slain, with no damage to the enemy archers.

I re-loaded the game and tried again. Wouldn't you know it, same thing.

I re-loaded a third time and moved the archers to a different square. I easily captured the city.


It's almost as if the randomizer has written out all random results beforehand. Or perhaps the computer just cheats. ^_^

[korn469]

Kenjura

when you reload a game, the outcomes are "locked" so that you don't gain an advanatge by reloading again and again until you get the results you want...but i do agree with Venger that funny things seem to be going on with the random number generator

EDIT:

Venger all terrain confers at least a 10% defender bonus iirc so the percentage of that happening should be something more like .0252%

maybe you are just one of those 3 lucky people of 10,000 who got to see this occur

[Sevorak]

Yes, I'd have to say my observations with double-hit-points are looking quite similar, it's either that there's a dependent pRNG or there's an auto win percentage.

BTW, with your double hit point units, are you getting odd graphic bleed involving the tops of the hit point bars?

-Sev

[Fistleaf]

Maybe on the day of the battle, there is an alignment of the planets, eclipse of the sun, or major sunspot activity, resulting in the freak results.

[Monoriu]

I once had a veteran ironclad down to 3 hp. I made the mistake of not covering it with a full health unit and the next turn 5 AI frigates attacked it.

Result:

Ironclad became elite and with 1 hp left
all 5 AI frigates sank

Another one:

Bombarded enemy ironclad to 2 hp left. Attacked with 4hp veteran battleship.

Result:

Battleship lost and ironclad didn't suffer a scratch.



Draw your own conclusions. Mine is:

1. The AI doesn't cheat in combat. The random generator isn't favouring the AI.

2. I do have a suspicion that the random generator isn't really random.

[cassembler]

Has anybody considered the fact that perhaps units have certain characteristics (strength vs. units, etc.) that are hard-coded?

[Shiva]

Originally posted by cassembler
Has anybody considered the fact that perhaps units have certain characteristics (strength vs. units, etc.) that are hard-coded?

If they did that then we would end up screwed for modding.

[Fidel]

can we award venger a 'whiner of the year' award, please? he produces 2,37 whining threads a day

[Altuar]

About random generator:

This I've been suspecting for quite a while, check my earlier posts about combat. Anyway, my last two games I've noticed something funny: in the same turn that a resource would run out, another one would appear. Now, since the odds for that happening is quite low, my guess is this...

(now this happens at the end of turns, the {}s denote functions)

{check for resource exhaustion}
{die roll}: 2
CHECK - eliminate resource
end function

{check for resource appearance}
{die roll}: 2 (the same one!!!)
CHECK - resource appears
end function.

Same thing happens in combat.. So the {die roll} function is broken... my guess is this: since most randomizers rely on the computer clock (since it changes constantly) as seed, perhaps the Civ randomizer looks at seconds digit - so two consecutive calls to the function, if made in the same second, returns the same result.

[Mannamagnus]

I re-loaded a third time and moved the archers to a different square. I easily captured the city.

Maybe, by moving your archers to a different square, you crossed a river?

[Cian McGuire]

Same thing happens in combat.. So the {die roll} function is broken... my guess is this: since most randomizers rely on the computer clock (since it changes constantly) as seed, perhaps the Civ randomizer looks at seconds digit - so two consecutive calls to the function, if made in the same second, returns the same result.

Nope- I've tried waiting for a little bit, such as going about the rest of my turn or walking away in frustration. What I have noticed is that it's all dependant on the turn- this goes for goodie huts as well- get something you don't like, reload, and wait until the next turn to plunder

[Monoriu]

Originally posted by Altuar
About random generator:

This I've been suspecting for quite a while, check my earlier posts about combat. Anyway, my last two games I've noticed something funny: in the same turn that a resource would run out, another one would appear. Now, since the odds for that happening is quite low, my guess is this...

(now this happens at the end of turns, the {}s denote functions)

{check for resource exhaustion}
{die roll}: 2
CHECK - eliminate resource
end function

{check for resource appearance}
{die roll}: 2 (the same one!!!)
CHECK - resource appears
end function.

Same thing happens in combat.. So the {die roll} function is broken... my guess is this: since most randomizers rely on the computer clock (since it changes constantly) as seed, perhaps the Civ randomizer looks at seconds digit - so two consecutive calls to the function, if made in the same second, returns the same result.

nah, strategc resource is a completely different question, and there is a good justification for replacing a disappeared resource immediately with another one.

Basically, I think there is a fixed set number of each strategic resource in the game. Firaxis has openly stated that there should be enough strategic resource for everybody in the game, but the trick is they are not evenly distributed. The equation is likely to be # of civs in game plus a few. If a strategic resource disappear and there is no replacement for it, then eventually the # of that strategic resource will be lower than the # of civs in game.

Hence, its deliberate that when a strategic resource disappear, another appears immediately. You can say that strategic resources never disappear. They just move around.

[Wrong_shui]

Venger, give in, people wont accept its broken even if your had soren come on here and say so.

[Boney]

I too have had my probs with strange results. I have even seen strange results between the AI. I once had 2 Man o War attacking and being defeated by a caravel. No Prob. The Spanish Armada is testament to that possibility.

What I don't like is that a warrior can enter a city with 20 battleships and 15 bombers and destroy them all. any comments?