The random generator HAS to be broken

[Excelsior]

Yes, the generator is pure crap.

Did anyone see my thread about testing to see whether the random number generator is broken? We could see whether or not this is the case.

[Setsuna]

Originally posted by Pyrodrew


Poetic Justice - n. - The rewarding of virtue and the punishment of vice, often in an especially appropriate or ironic manner.

Venger's "hostile temperament" as you put it is far from being a virtue, as does his issues with the game. And your perception is clouded if you see a vice in those responding to Venger.

You left out the irony part. Whether we're speaking of just Venger or the "factions" as a whole, the original statement still applies correctly. Your bias prevents you from giving credence to this fact. You just haven't thought it through.

Where did you get that? Re-read my posts or do you like making things up as you go along. Again there is a difference between whining & constructive criticism... you are showing the ability to lack the difference.

I'm sorry, I thought we were on the same level here. Never mind.

It is your opinion that Venger is whining. If Venger merely offered complaint after complaint with no suggestions you might have a point, but that is not the case.

Duh. Again BIG difference between making your complaints in a civil manner & filling up the board with "whines".

See above.

The problem with your theory is that when a post is filled with more whines than useful content & which others say is not a problem now that has wasted Firaxis time rather than attending to important issues.

"Others" being the minority position which you're siding with. Point invalidated.

Complaints can be quite trivial sometimes... as the quanity of complaints from the same person increase the quality of those complaints after a certain point will decrease. Thus a person making a complaint about 2 issues is more likely to have 2 valid issues than someone making 50 different posts... "random generator has to be broken"... just think about that for second.

What other issues with the game are trivial to you? So if the game is filled with bugs everyone should find two bugs and then turn a blind eye to the rest?

Exactly, and not be buried underneathe trivial complaints... a thread in a soft-spoken (or soft-written) style can quickly get buried here by those with loud voices.

Firaxis is already aware of the major issues with the game (In other words, the few things that you're willing to admit are wrong with it. ) Your notion that more pressing issues with the game will somehow be drowned in a cacophony of "whining" is unfounded.

Your delusion that Venger is a game bug visionary is entertaining, but the quantity of people who disagree with him say otherwise.

Now who's putting words into whose mouth? As for numbers, for what it's worth the polls side with Venger, not you.

[Pyrodrew]

Originally posted by Setsuna
You left out the irony part. Whether we're speaking of just Venger or the "factions" as a whole, the original statement still applies correctly. Your bias prevents you from giving credence to this fact. You just haven't thought it through.

There is more to poetic justice than irony & that is the part I explained. It would been correct to say that being unable to download the patch is ironic, but it is not "poetic justice" due to the elements of virtue & vice required.

It is your opinion that Venger is whining. If Venger merely offered complaint after complaint with no suggestions you might have a point, but that is not the case.

I see no suggestion by him here & his post in "What would u like Fixed in civ 3?" thread also had no suggestions. You need to look at more of his threads.

"Others" being the minority position which you're siding with. Point invalidated.

The minority is not always wrong & all the people posting doesn't represent everyone who is playing (much less part of Apolyton). It is more important to validate & prove the point Venger made... others should not have to prove the generator is not broken simply because those who have bad 'dice rolls' post here. Burden of proof lies on those who make the accusation.

What other issues with the game are trivial to you? So if the game is filled with bugs everyone should find two bugs and then turn a blind eye to the rest?

Re-read my posts, I didn't say that.

Firaxis is already aware of the major issues with the game (In other words, the few things that you're willing to admit are wrong with it. )

I didn't even state what I felt was wrong with it. How would you know they are few? Your points are based on plenty of assumptions I see.

Your notion that more pressing issues with the game will somehow be drowned in a cacophony of "whining" is unfounded.

The idea that they would not be drowned out is unfounded since it is highly unlikely Firaxis reads every post. I've seen some great 1 post threads get buried simply because they are too long... Venger's multi-thread shotgun approach is effective for responses, I'll give him that.

Now who's putting words into whose mouth?

You're still up on me by 1 or 2 since your last post now. I'm trying to catch up.

As for numbers, for what it's worth the polls side with Venger, not you.

There is NO poll... only a FEW posts here which is not a valid sample size. A true Apolyton poll would be better... even tho it would be somewhat bias since it doesn't include those who don't visit this forum. More importantly being in the minority (*especially* in a Venger thread) is irrelevant to whether one is right or wrong. Again Venger's claim is just a claim... there is no proof.

[Venger]

If Pyrodrew dropped dead in a forest, would he still make a noise like a girl?

Originally posted by Pyrodrew

Venger's "hostile temperament"
responding to Venger,
that Venger is

Obsess much? You sound like Jan Brady...Marcia Marcia Marcia!

Your "dorky" threads are taking up have of page 1 simply due to your arrogance & lack of knowledge.

Please feel free to skip them, you doubtless don't have the intellectual depth to participate in them in any meaningful manner, so do us all a favor and ignore them. Don't go away mad, just go away...

You didn't write the combat generator, don't have the programming to the combat generator, & yet simply because a few battles don't go your way you claim it is broken.

Few battles? I've had, I estimate, over 800 battles in my current game. I am looking to see if the streakiness I am seeing is also seen by others. Guess what, it is. I'd be surpised if you actually owned or played the game, you seem to want to talk about me more than the actual forum topic...

Sounds like just a sore loser with a BIG mouth. You have my pity. I don't know how many "1 star threads" you are after

Who cares about star thread ratings? Does ANYONE look at that? If you do, and it's my thread, please SKIP IT...

but the bug is not with the program... it is with you.

You can't keep the fanboy in you down for long can you...

I'm still up with your offer you made in an earlier thread stating, "maybe I should leave." You can leave anytime freak... anytime.

What thread was that? Here's an offer in this thread: piss off. Let's see if you keep coming back to this thread though, like a dog to it's own vomit, because you cannot help but be a persnickity child who enjoys the conversational equivalent of peeing in the community pool.

Regarding the random generator - it's fine. As several have stated here.

You cannot discern between a statement of fact and a statement as fact. You stating it is fine carries not one whit of gravity. Nobody here has any knowledge of the inner workings of the generator - we are all simply speculating. Some people seem to have experienced enough to decide it's behaving in a way inconsistent with design, and may not be correct.

Over on the SP:WAW forum, people were posting over and over that something was wrong with tank assualt percentages, but no, came the lifeless SP groupies, it was just us. Until they finally said, oh yeah, we found a bug that resulted in factorial errors in result.

Now accept your loss like a man, instead of whining like a... 'simpering girl'.

Loss? Is that what you get from these threads, winning and losing? Pretty pathetic...

Venger

[Kc7mxo]

heh. this thread is about as dead as my two indian elephants, killed by horsemen! two veterans lost to two regulars in a row!

yipee! i love this game! <- Sarcasm!

[TCO]

Originally posted by Kc7mxo
heh. this thread is about as dead as my two indian elephants, killed by horsemen! two veterans lost to two regulars in a row!

yipee! i love this game! <- Sarcasm!

Why are you sad about horsies killing elephants? This for sure, is a conceivable result.

[Pyrodrew]

If Venger dropped dead in a forest... ahhhh.

Originally posted by Venger
Obsess much? You sound like Jan Brady...Marcia Marcia Marcia!

Looking for others to join your Obsession Club again I see. I must decline. I simply responded to Setsuna's post.

Please feel free to skip them, you doubtless don't have the intellectual depth to participate in them in any meaningful manner, so do us all a favor and ignore them. Don't go away mad, just go away...

I see you have no originality or tact as this was simply a "no you go away" response... disappointing. As others have pointed out you have a "teenage boy" mentality... not intellectual depth.

Few battles? I've had, I estimate, over 800 battles in my current game. I am looking to see if the streakiness I am seeing is also seen by others. Guess what, it is.

Of course you would estimate over 800... you're Venger & everything seems to be an extreme to you. People have been posting losing odd battles for a long time. This post is nothing new. Difference is instead of claiming it's a bad combat system or flawed combat program, you claim that it is specifically the Random Number Generator... without any proof.

I'd be surpised if you actually owned or played the game, you seem to want to talk about me more than the actual forum topic...

The majority of my posts show otherwise. I simply agreed with GP here... you freaked out about it... decided to make a scene... here we are.

Who cares about star thread ratings? Does ANYONE look at that? If you do, and it's my thread, please SKIP IT...

I often do, this 1 for some reason scored a 3. And if people are voting... people obviously care.

You can't keep the fanboy in you down for long can you...

You're quite the prima donna aren't you.

What thread was that? Here's an offer in this thread: piss off.

This is more of that intellectual depth of yours right?

Loss? Is that what you get from these threads, winning and losing? Pretty pathetic...

Loss as in the battle(s) you lost which led you to start this thread. I was hoping at the very least you would comprehend that.

Nobody here has any knowledge of the inner workings of the generator - we are all simply speculating. Some people seem to have experienced enough to decide it's behaving in a way inconsistent with design, and may not be correct. Over on the SP:WAW forum, people were posting over and over that something was wrong with tank assualt percentages, but no, came the lifeless SP groupies, it was just us. Until they finally said, oh yeah, we found a bug that resulted in factorial errors in result.

Again, I must agree with GP here... GP:"You're going to have to be more scientific if you want any traction in your claims of bias in AI combat." Claiming the combat system is flawed is one thing... claiming it is the random number generator without proof is a more just a red herring.

Let's see if you keep coming back to this thread though, like a dog to it's own vomit, because you cannot help but be a persnickity child who enjoys the conversational equivalent of peeing in the community pool.

If you gave more intellectual responses rather than "teenage boy" insults you wouldn't have this... or with LaRusse, etc. Thus, I suspect you thirst for "pee in the community pool". Again I simply agreed with GP, ignore me or respond with tact and I'll leave this thread. *Offers olive branch*

[Venger]

Hint: When offering an olive branch, try to do it before posting inflammatory material. Piling on and then wanting to shake on it isn't diplomacy...

For what it's worth, the reason we are posting this here is that we've seen results that seem to indicate a problem. If someone has the wherewithall to conduct an open study, they can do it. I have neither the time nor the inclination to do one, but alot of people did wonderful testing on the Civ2 engine, and we got to the point where we knew it inside and out.

Now Civ3 uses a random number string generator - the mechanics of which are a mystery to all. Until we know more about how it works, it will leave us with only speculation and anecdotal evidence based on the only samples we have - our games.

Venger

[number6]

Pyrodrew, either contribute to this thread or leave. I am sick an tired of your long posts that do nothing, but try to demean other members of this board. If you ask me you need to get a life and stop worrying about what other people are doing. I for one think Venger has a point about the combat system. You have made the point that you don't agree with anyone in this thread, we all know that by now. Stop trying to one up Venger or whoever else tickles your fancy. If you ask me Venger posts with much more intelligence than you.

Back to the topic of this thread,

I have not done any analysis other than observing during gameplay in the few games I have played. The game has serious problems with combat especially with modern units versus middle age units. It is not just people on this board seeing this problem either. The recent review in PC Gamer mentioned the unit imbalance. The reviewer basically said that his tanks were constantly being killed by Knights and he hoped that this issue would be addressed in a future patch. In every strategy game I have played the modern units always have a big advantage over older units (that's why you spend all your resources to advance up the tech tree). In Civ 3 the advantage is barely noticeable. In old civ (1 & 2) victory through conquest was always my favorite way of playing. That's what I liked about the game. The way Civ3 plays currently takes a lot of the fun out of military conquest. I will not play again till the patch comes out and if this issue is not resolved I don't think I will be playing Civ 3 much longer. This game was definitely rushed and I would have preferred waiting till next year or however long it took to have the game play right.

[Excelsior]

Originally posted by number6
I have not done any analysis other than observing during gameplay in the few games I have played. The game has serious problems with combat especially with modern units versus middle age units.

From my thread on this topic:

I think the problem is with the small number of hitpoints. It allows relatively short streaks of 2 or 3 in a row to be decisive. As it stands, with two three hitpoint warriors, the odds of the battle ending with one side completely undamaged is 25%! That's a lot! By comparison, in Civ2, the odds of such a thing occuring, with Civ3's 10% defense bonus, was slightly over 0.2%.

I believe this is also what causes a lot of the tank vs. pikeman angst. Assuming 3HP units, a pikeman fortified inside a metropolis on grassland has a fairly reasonable 16.5% chance of victory. With 10 HP units, this drops to 3.3%.

I would recomend increasing the hitpoints for each experience level using the editor if you find irrational battle outcomes to be a problem.

[Pyrodrew]

Well thanks Number6 for curtailing this thread backwards instead of on the topic. Re-read my posts, I NEVER said I didn't agree with "anyone in this thread" - you're lies will get you no where. If you read our last 2 prior posts Venger & I wrote, things were solved, but you had to join in on a "me too" notion. Bottomline - Shut up about it, it's over.

*Attempting to exit*

[Hunter Hutchins]

my experience

I think I was using horsemen to attack fortified archers...it was a decent run. I started using legionaries, wanting mainly to start a golden age rather than use legions, but I attacked these same fortified archers, and a warrior or two. I think I lost about 10 times in a row (new record for me) before getting that golden age.

[N. Machiavelli]

You Are the Weakest Link, goodbye.

Originally posted by Pyrodrew

*Attempting to exit*

Bye. Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

*This does not need a resonse, it's simply a goodbye.*

[shak_unsw]

So you guys are saying that once I reload, outcomes become locked?? That probably explains my problem. I saved and then tried to take over a few cities using propaganda. I took over a few cities till I found a city that couldn't be subverted. I reloaded and tried to take the cities that I could previously but noone will come over. And I haven't been able to take a city over in that manner since... Has anyone else had this problem???