Random whines about CIV3

[miike]

I wonder if there is any kind of combat system at all in this game. Earlier I used a nuclear submarine to attack an ironclad and I lost my Nuclear submarine. What is up with that? Just today, I used my Veteran Samerai to attack an elite warrior. Well, my samerai had to retreat. Sometimes, this whole thing does not make any sense. Once is not such a big deal, but I frequently see weak units beating back very strong units. I don't really like this at all. Also, When I go to war with another Civ, I always check to see what resources they have or don't have. Because certain Civs have their "wonder" unit that is really strong. Anyways, I went to war with the Chinese. Their unit is some kind of Cav unit. After making sure, that they did not have any access to horses, I attacked them. Well right after I attacked, here comes the Cavalry and knights. I really like the idea of luxuries and resources, but not if the computer does not play by it.
I also hate the fact, that enemy combat units can just "walk by" your own combat units. Now that is really stupid. I prefered it much more like SMAC, where you could put your units at strategic points to deny the enemy access to certain land or whatever. I wish that they would fix that.
And man the bartering system is really bad. Never a fair trade, AI civs always want something. Even when trying to get a peace treaty. The Enemy Civ can demand something from you, if you want peace. But if you are kicking the Civs butt, you can not demand anything from it, to stop the whupping.
Oh yeah, for some reason, whenever I make a map all the luxuries and some resources are all lumped together in like a 4 square block. On my last map the majority of the luxuries were all right next to each other. This game could really use a patch or 2. For a normal game, this might be acceptable. For a Firaxis game, and a SID game, this is unnacceptable.

[Dis]

[Monoriu]

"I wonder if there is any kind of combat system at all in this game. Earlier I used a nuclear submarine to attack an ironclad and I lost my Nuclear submarine. What is up with that? Just today, I used my Veteran Samerai to attack an elite warrior. Well, my samerai had to retreat. Sometimes, this whole thing does not make any sense. Once is not such a big deal, but I frequently see weak units beating back very strong units. I don't really like this at all. "


I suggest you check out many of the huge threads on this very board. The issue i hotly debated, some people like it (including me), and many others don't. I have no intention to hijack this thread so I'll just leave it at that.

"Also, When I go to war with another Civ, I always check to see what resources they have or don't have. Because certain Civs have their "wonder" unit that is really strong. Anyways, I went to war with the Chinese. Their unit is some kind of Cav unit. After making sure, that they did not have any access to horses, I attacked them. Well right after I attacked, here comes the Cavalry and knights. I really like the idea of luxuries and resources, but not if the computer does not play by it. "

The AI civs can buy the resources from another AI civ, you can do that as well.

"I also hate the fact, that enemy combat units can just "walk by" your own combat units. Now that is really stupid. I prefered it much more like SMAC, where you could put your units at strategic points to deny the enemy access to certain land or whatever. I wish that they would fix that. "


Its intentional, zoc is gone from civ 3. I like it that way, it makes combat more challenging, otherwise just block off several squares and you can it at the line indefinitely.

"And man the bartering system is really bad. Never a fair trade, AI civs always want something. Even when trying to get a peace treaty. The Enemy Civ can demand something from you, if you want peace. But if you are kicking the Civs butt, you can not demand anything from it, to stop the whupping. "

Of course you can demand something if you are winning. I have gotten tons of techs from the AIs who are losing the war. A lot of people have developed "vassel" strategies to extract stuff from weak AIs.

As for the AIs trading unfairly, yeah, but don't forget you can sell the same tech to all the AI civs in the same turn to get the most out of it.


"Oh yeah, for some reason, whenever I make a map all the luxuries and some resources are all lumped together in like a 4 square block. On my last map the majority of the luxuries were all right next to each other."

Again this is deliberate. The aim is to make sure that most civs only get 1-2 resource, therefore, they have to trade with each other. If everybody got everything, then why trade?

"This game could really use a patch or 2. For a normal game, this might be acceptable. For a Firaxis game, and a SID game, this is unnacceptable."

There are some major bugs in this game, like air superiority, but overall, I am enjoying the game as is.

[Fidel]

Re: Random whines about CIV3

Originally posted by miike
I wonder if there is any kind of combat system at all in this game. Earlier I used a nuclear submarine to attack an ironclad and I lost my Nuclear submarine. What is up with that? Just today, I used my Veteran Samerai to attack an elite warrior. Well, my samerai had to retreat. Sometimes, this whole thing does not make any sense. Once is not such a big deal, but I frequently see weak units beating back very strong units. I don't really like this at all. Also, When I go to war with another Civ, I always check to see what resources they have or don't have. Because certain Civs have their "wonder" unit that is really strong. Anyways, I went to war with the Chinese. Their unit is some kind of Cav unit. After making sure, that they did not have any access to horses, I attacked them. Well right after I attacked, here comes the Cavalry and knights. I really like the idea of luxuries and resources, but not if the computer does not play by it.
I also hate the fact, that enemy combat units can just "walk by" your own combat units. Now that is really stupid. I prefered it much more like SMAC, where you could put your units at strategic points to deny the enemy access to certain land or whatever. I wish that they would fix that.
And man the bartering system is really bad. Never a fair trade, AI civs always want something. Even when trying to get a peace treaty. The Enemy Civ can demand something from you, if you want peace. But if you are kicking the Civs butt, you can not demand anything from it, to stop the whupping.
Oh yeah, for some reason, whenever I make a map all the luxuries and some resources are all lumped together in like a 4 square block. On my last map the majority of the luxuries were all right next to each other. This game could really use a patch or 2. For a normal game, this might be acceptable. For a Firaxis game, and a SID game, this is unnacceptable.

[Kekkonen]

Re: Random whines about CIV3

Originally posted by miike
And man the bartering system is really bad. Never a fair trade, AI civs always want something.

I've gotten straight one-for-one luxury deals. However, I think you only get these when you're dealing with a civ that is roughly equal to you. The lesser civs want something to close the gap; think of it as foreign aid. Often they'll also accept less than what they originally demand.

[Grumbold]

Should I put a sensible answer in a troll thread? Hmm. Well, here goes...

The AI civs know how many resources you are already getting and so they "score" their luxury appropriately. If you already have 4 luxuries then the next one will give your cities with marketplaces +3 happiness. That makes it 3x more valuable than a luxury that would only give you +1 happiness. Expect to be charged accordingly.

This makes obtaining all luxuries to get that magic +4 happiness luxury very expensive because all foreign deals are subsequently renegotiated on expiry as if their luxury is the one worth 4x standard. Its only worth contemplating if you have a healthy lead on the opposition and want to maximise your game score.

[conquistadore]

Originally posted by kekkonen
I've gotten straight one-for-one luxury deals. However, I think you only get these when you're dealing with a civ that is roughly equal to you. The lesser civs want something to close the gap; think of it as foreign aid.

i agree that it all depends on your size but from what i've encountered, its the stronger civs that is demanding tribute and stuff. If you refuse them, they give you hell. Conversely, when you are kicking their butts, they'll offer you everything to save their worthless lives.

Originally posted by miike
I also hate the fact, that enemy combat units can just "walk by" your own combat units.

They have modified ZOC in civ3, some units(eg. cavalry) are able to take shots at the enemy as they pass by.

[Mannamagnus]

Re: Random whines about CIV3

Originally posted by miike
This game could really use a patch or 2. For a normal game, this might be acceptable. For a Firaxis game, and a SID game, this is unnacceptable.

Yeah civ2 didn't need any patches at all!

[Akka]

The AI does in fact always ask for much more than they should. Just try something silly : propose to the AI to give it 10 gold, and in exchange it should give you 10 gold.
Well, answer is simple : they will say something like "this deal is too much one-sided". Perhaps that it's because I lead the game, but anyway it's stupid. I offered a lot of time a fair deal to the AI, and finally get at war with it because I was tired to never be able to exchange something for something roughtly equivalent. NO, I won't give 43 gold/turn + world map + 2 technology + access to my rubber just to get access to oil. Talk about one-sided deals :P

And they will NEVER EVER sell you a city unless you're crushing them and force them into begging for peace. Even if you propose your entire empire in exchange of one of their tundra-based 2-population city.

[Kekkonen]

Originally posted by conquistadore
i agree that it all depends on your size but from what i've encountered, its the stronger civs that is demanding tribute and stuff. If you refuse them, they give you hell. Conversely, when you are kicking their butts, they'll offer you everything to save their worthless lives.

I haven't seen a "tributary" trade proposal by a strong civ yet. Otto the Cranky German did regularly extort tech as tribute early in my current game when his military was stronger than mine. That was straight tribute, not a lopsided trade though.

Of course, now that we're in the mid-1900s he's only got three cities left and no strategic resources. Morale of the story: if you piss off the little guy early, make sure you've got more than just riflemen when he comes a'knocking with tanks and artillery.

[Monoriu]

Come on people, yes I know most of the stuff he posted have already been mentioned many, many times here. But the original poster maybe new here and at least he posted his comments in a sensible, and polite way. He deserves better treatment from us.

[Grumbold]

Originally posted by Akka le Vil
And they will NEVER EVER sell you a city unless you're crushing them and force them into begging for peace. Even if you propose your entire empire in exchange of one of their tundra-based 2-population city.

Quite right. Blair and buddies are having talks with the Spanish right now about how to maybe, possibly, eventually give some limited rights to Gibraltar back to Spain. Immediately the residents are screaming death or victory and the UK govt has to rush out and stress that nothing will happen without a successful referendum of the residents. Unless you are a despot just giving away cities full of your own people is political suicide. About the best you can do is look the other way when it gets occupied during a war.

[Fidel]

Originally posted by Grumbold


Quite right. Blair and buddies are having talks with the Spanish right now about how to maybe, possibly, eventually give some limited rights to Gibraltar back to Spain. Immediately the residents are screaming death or victory and the UK govt has to rush out and stress that nothing will happen without a successful referendum of the residents. Unless you are a despot just giving away cities full of your own people is political suicide. About the best you can do is look the other way when it gets occupied during a war.

yeah, blair will not give it away until spanish armada appears again before the white cliffs of dover. hum, to get there, it has to sell through gibraltar. sorted

[Kekkonen]

Grumbold is quite right. Of course Alaska did get sold, but it was by a de facto despot, the Russian Czar, and most of the local population may not even have known that it was a part of the Russian empire.

In game terms, it's probably good that the AI doesn't sell its cities (unless its being trampled over by some very persuasive military boots). I mean, is there any other logical reason why you'd want to buy that little town in a remote tundra island besides the fact that you want to screw the AI out of its oil supply before it figures out Refining?

[Akka]

Originally posted by Kekkonen
Grumbold is quite right. Of course Alaska did get sold, but it was by a de facto despot, the Russian Czar, and most of the local population may not even have known that it was a part of the Russian empire.

In game terms, it's probably good that the AI doesn't sell its cities (unless its being trampled over by some very persuasive military boots). I mean, is there any other logical reason why you'd want to buy that little town in a remote tundra island besides the fact that you want to screw the AI out of its oil supply before it figures out Refining?

On a point of realism, it does not make sense either to have the AI refuse to take 17 cities from you empire against a 2-point population town located in the end of the world.
On a point of pure gameplay, I think that trading crucial cities could be part of deals.

I admit though that only autoritarian governments should be able to sell cities. It both make sense and give a little (ok, VERY VERY VERY small) advantage to governments that are not democracy/republic


And on a side note, the main thing I was complaining was not about the AI selling cities, it was about the AI always making outrageous deals, practically forcing you to either enter in a war or be bled to death if you want a ressource it has.