What's the #@$#@ point of borders??? (rant)

[Grumbold]

I believe people have posted here that you can disband cities that are at pop 2, but you have to ensure that they are at zero food growth. If they are gaining food the AI automatically delays production for you until the city reaches 3 pop.

[Dev]

Thanks Grumbold, that makes sense...no wait it doesn't but it does solve my problem

/dev

[The Rook]

My last game, I wasn't doing too well, and everyone was running all over me, but once I made it to a certain point, the civs started respecting my borders. I think throwing the game away is over reacting though.

[redcloud]

What's a peaceful civilization?

Anyone care to show me a civilization that just built, and was all nice and peaceful and cultural, and that didn't get totally wiped out at some point by something far more aggressive and militaristic? Anyone? I actually can't think of a single major civilization that has avoided warfare in it's territories at all during it's existence.

(And don't say America, America isn't a Civilization, it's the result of English and French colonization of "the new world". It has no ancient or middle age history at all. That it exists in this game is somewhat stupid IMHO - is that asking to be flamed or what?!? )

And to the guy who wanted to be Switzerland. Find some mountains, build in them, build maybe two cities, build lots of Riflemen, and then start building banks I guess and making money. Oh, and don't piss anyone off!

I guess if you are into that kinda thing, it may be interesting. To me, it would be just plain boring! I want to be able to say "that Mongol campaign in the early middle ages really ****ed me up, glad I was able to turn back the horde", or to be proud of my invasion of India, or my naval blockade of Germany, or or ....

... You get the idea.

If you want to build things, go buy a box of Lego. If you want to build a Civilization to "stand the test of time", then play Civ III, and deal with the aggressive AI and interesting situations it may put you in.

[Ray K]

Originally posted by PatriotPlayer
Civilization 1&2 were empire building games not puzzle city placement war games.

Wrong. Civilization has always been a war game. The last time I checked, nukes have been in the game since day 1.

If you want to play an empire building game without military conflict, I'm not sure if Civ is the right game. However, you can play peacefully if you always suck up to your neighbors. That's your prerogative, of course.

[Malkuth]

You guys still dont get the point, why not have them fix it instead of arguing over it so much. Thier is no point in a Civ to plant a City in the middle of your Empire. Open territory or not. Even on the highest Difficulty the City is not going to grow enough to Out Culture your 10 point capital and 4-8 point cities around it. This needs to be fixed. The AI is giving you a free city.

And in my example I use to protect my borders but Im in a bad War right now and its hard to watch all this stuff. + I just let them crawl through now, cant afford a second front war anyway.

[Max Webster]

I have had civs plant cities within gaps in my civ, after awhile I just assimilate them through culture or if they are not nice to me I raze it. Sometimes i wait till they fatten it up and then conquer it.

[Yohan]

Barchan hit it right on the nose, IMO. You have to have a strong military to prevent AI civs from trampling your borders. In my first 2 games when I was still trying to figure out the mechanics of the game, AI civs would run up and down my territory, completely ignoring my repeated demands to leave my territory. They would leave when I demanded, then come right back the next turn. In my current game, I have a strong enough military to where my neighbors dare not trespass. The only units that have crossed my borders since I finished my war with the Romans are workers--no military units whatsoever.

Barchan is also correct that the game should've included a cause of war justification for declaring war. In practical terms one way to implement this could be: after 2 demands within a span of, say, 10 turns against an AI civ for that civ to stop trespassing, if that civ trespasses one more time it's automatic war. How casus belli would work here is that other AI civs see that the trespasser was at fault and you would not incur any diplomatic hostility/penalties/sanctions because of the war that the AI civ started. Now really, how hard would that be to program? Not hard at all with the existing game structure, IMO.

But for now, the key is to have a strong military, and kick ass if your borders are violated and are that important to you.

[TheDarkside]

Here's a efefctive but funny technique to contorl AI expanse. I call it the "wall strategy". If you are at peace and want to control an AI from grabbing your territory, use units to block their escorted settlers from going to the land you have "surveyed" as your own. I have a good Screen shot at my comp at home, but basically I used a scout and 2 workers to blockade another's civ's settler from entering my "territory" (you know, that mental picture of how your empire should look based on the land you explored ) Just move with their settler so that they can only go a certain direction, away form your land. worst case scenario: they plop down and build where you are blockading them, but at least they dont get to settle that nice plot of land with gems and a river that you are surveying

[Steve Clark]

Here's an idea. If you want to play sandbox (peaceful) mode, select a huge continental-style map with 2 civs through the editor.

War has always been used to achieve other victories (diplomatic, cultural, spacerace, etc.) and those elements have always been used to achieve victory in a war.

[optimus2861]

Originally posted by Yohan
But for now, the key is to have a strong military, and kick ass if your borders are violated and are that important to you.

Oh, definitely. In my current game, I had some border-trampling problems (though not as bad as the first guy described). So I steadily built up my military, and then the Indians came a callin' with a force of 8 War Elephants. The moment he stepped across the border with them, I told him to get out and he promptly declared war (like there was a peaceful reason for crossing the border with that force!). Three turns later his elephants were dead, I had a couple of elite riders (I'm the Chinese), and I've noticed even my neighbour Germans who I have a right-of-passage with are a lot more leery about stepping over that line .

[Barnacle Bill]

Basically, I don't think they should be able to violate your borders without declaring war. This is not asking for an unrealistic peaceful world, just to put the burden of declaring war where it belongs - on the aggressor.

Given how it does work, I've taken to blocking places that look ripe for the AI's little tricks with my own units. Then, they do have to declare war if they want to trespass. Unfortunately, there is no cheap, 0 maintenance unit for this purpose in Civ3 (in Civ2 I used diplomats). Once we can add units in the editor, I may see if I can create one called "border guards" - make them have no attack or defense like a worker but not do anything, and cost next to nothing.

[Barchan]

Of course, the Native American Indians didn't understand why the Paleface settlers kept plunking towns and cities all throughout their empire, either. Until it was too late, that is.

If you are focusing on developing decent culture values in your empire then, yes, you should eventually assimilate these little expansion attempts. But if you are forced into a war or cannot build the things that generate culture, perhaps you won't assimilate the town. Perhaps it might be the other way around.

I don't think the AI needs fixing on this point. It's frustrating, I agree, but it's not a bad idea. The AI is taking a calculated risk; it's gambling that a worker and military unit can eventually grow into the straw that breaks your back. At the very least, that little town in the middle of your growing empire will interfere with your internal troop movements and may rob you of luxuries or needed resources. At best, it may develop enough culture and production of its own to not only survive on its own but also begin swallowing up some of your cities to boot. I think it’s a sucker’s bet, but people buy lottery tickets all the time. Why shouldn’t the AI?

It’s important to note that you can’t claim eminent domain or manifest destiny in the game; just because you feel the rest of the continent is yours doesn’t make it so. When it comes to real estate, possession is nine-tenths of the law. If your borders don’t cover it, you don’t own it. Period. Unless you happen to be lucky enough to start near a natural choke point and can screen the AI away from unoccupied land behind you, the only thing you can do is grab all the land you can as fast as you can. Then build cultural buildings as fast as possible and begin expanding your borders.

[Pyrodrew]

Originally posted by Barnacle Bill
Once we can add units in the editor, I may see if I can create one called "border guards" - make them have no attack or defense like a worker but not do anything, and cost next to nothing.

Cheapest cost for a unit is 1 (10shlds). That is a GREAT idea tho. Upkeep is always 1 for everything right now tho, so you might want to suggest it at the Civ3 website.