Repairing corruption

[WhiteElephants]

Originally posted by Ray K
Here are the originally "Optimal Cities" limits for the map sizes (Tiny/Small/STandard/Large/Huge):

8/12/16/24/32

Assuming that the "Standard" map is the optimal setting, here are the balanced numbers for "Optimal Cities":

12/14/16/21/26

You can see that there is a big difference for the Tiny map. Going from 8 to 12 is a 50% improvement. That is the setting I will be playing on. I wonder how many players on Large and Huge maps will be lowering their settings to make corruption as difficult as on the Standard map?

I have to respectfully disagree with this evaluation, unless of course you're willing to scale back the amount of movement points each unit receives as well as the amount of land each city can work?

It is my belief that the numbers are skewed to reflect the very smallness and largeness of the respectable map sizes. For instance, on a Huge map it would take a naval unit much, much longer to circle the world while on a tiny map it would probably take only take a matter of turns. To balance this I imagine that the numbers need to be skewed in order to reflect the relative size of the map. Allowing only a few cities on a tiny map means that your enemies capital is less likely to be within striking distance of your entire army. Giving players more cities on a Huge map increases the likelyhood of you being within striking distance of at least your enemies border cities.

While the math that has been done is interesting it fails to consider the that amount of land worked per city and that amound of movement points per units remains unchanged. If one is to truly scale the game down these things must be considered.

[Ray K]

Originally posted by yavoon
ray, ur a petty whiner, the game got hard, u took away the feature that madeit hard then sed "problem solved." I have no respect for that attitude, and I never will.

That was no feature. However, you believe what you want. It has no bearing on my enjoyment of the game.

[Grunthex]

Originally posted by yavoon
ray, ur a petty whiner, the game got hard, u took away the feature that madeit hard then sed "problem solved." I have no respect for that attitude, and I never will.

You sir, are an ass. You come in here like some kind of exiled royalty, and criticize someone who has made completely valid points on the subject.

You know what? I don't really agree with Ray, but then I don't play the small map sizes, so I haven't experienced it.

On the other hand, he has presented clear numbers, and has taken some time to experiment and figure out how things change. You haven't made one reasonable or even intelligent point in your several postings, and I think everyone here would be greatly appreciative if you were to kindly shut up, leave, and never come back.

[Grunthex]

Ok, now that he's done... I noticed you said the (current) Max # cities for Large maps is 24. In my current game, I have 23, but even so, the farthest cities are experiencing from 50-75% corruption.

Not counting one I'll get to in a bit, these are all on my continent, connected by road to my capital (which I sorta relocated to be more central). They're managable though, and even though I think it's a BIT high, and might tweak it a bit later, for now it'll do.

The one other city is on a small island, about as far from my capital as you can get. I can NOT break the 99% corruption here, even with a harbor connecting it, an airport, and a courthouse. Under democracy. Has anyone been able to set up functional cities on 3 separate continents in a large+ map? (3, because you can handle 2 with Forbidden Palace)

It seems like the distance algorithm on large is as cruel as the #s on small.

[pg]

eh?

Originally posted by Ray K
Here are the originally "Optimal Cities" limits for the map sizes (Tiny/Small/Standard/Large/Huge):

8/12/16/24/32

Assuming that the "Standard" map is the optimal setting, here are the balanced numbers for "Optimal Cities":

12/14/16/21/26

i saw the math and it indeed looked perfectly correct but all this fuss is based on the assumption that the standard map and it's setting are correct and can be transferred via mathematical formula and applied to all maps. frankly, i find that to be a bit absurd. it seems to me that you have made up your mind that the corruption is wrong and are relentlessly causing havoc even though the game has only been out for 3 days. in truth there is probably a very reasonable explanation for this that we just don't know about yet. i'm am just a bit concerned when someone raises so much a ruckus regarding a certain issue given inadequate research or CREDIBLE PROOF. it seems to me you have an unannounced agenda that benefits from corruption being drastically lowered.

[Pyrodrew]

Corrupt Corruption?

If corruption is increased on Huge & Large Maps it will make the Commercial Civ Bonus even greater, which already received the most votes in a recent poll in the Civ3-Civilizations forum (compared to Religious which received 3). We don't need the Commercial Civ Bonus being even more powerful. The majority of corruption complainers seem to be Tiny map players... so make the adjustment for the Tiny & Small maps (maybe slightly for Standard) as Soren hinted to. I haven't seen a Tiny map player insist corruption was fine or too low.

If I am going to change corruption it's going to be to add more. The more difficult the challange, the more fun the game is.

This falsely assumes that the AI will benefit from increased corruption. Given how fast the AI grows & expands on maps it would be logical to assume that increased corruption would make the game easier (unless you can expand faster than the AI which I haven't heard anyone claim yet).

[lockstep]

Re: eh?

Originally posted by pg
i saw the math and it indeed looked perfectly correct but all this fuss is based on the assumption that the standard map and it's setting are correct and can be transferred via mathematical formula and applied to all maps. frankly, i find that to be a bit absurd.

All I was trying to say was: Even if you assume that the setting of one of the five maps is 'correct' (e.g. that of the standard map), the other settings are anomalous with respect to map sizes and numbers of civs.

Originally posted by Pyrodrew
If corruption is increased on Huge & Large Maps it will make the Commercial Civ Bonus even greater, which already received the most votes in a recent poll in the Civ3-Civilizations forum (compared to Religious which received 3). We don't need the Commercial Civ Bonus being even more powerful. The majority of corruption complainers seem to be Tiny map players... so make the adjustment for the Tiny & Small maps (maybe slightly for Standard) as Soren hinted to.

Assuming the setting for huge maps is correct results in 'optimal cities' numbers of 14/17/20/26/32 (only integers used). Again, I don´t have the game yet, so I can´t comment on the 'absolute' hardships of waste and corruption.

[Garrett]

Nothing in life, including any feature of a game, is absolutely “good” or “bad”.
It all depends on your perspective.

Instead of supporting or trashing an element of the game, it seems better to ask the question: “what did the designer intend here”. If you agree with the intent of the designer then the feature is appropriate for you, if not then change it. I mean, it is your game, after all.

In C3, I think corruption and culture are both intended to keep as many civilizations in the game as possible, and as equally balanced as possible, as long as possible. Both features favor small civs over expansive ones and domestic turtles over expansionist hawks.

Comparing C2 and C3 the apparent result (from the 3 full games and a few more short experiments I’ve played) is that in C3 neither the player nor the computer civs can “steamroller” the map. In C2, with good placement and a little luck, one could develop powerful military units early and consume nearby cities. Every new city added more power to the military engine and, once you got the roller going, it was usually only stopped by the ocean. Even at higher levels (though not, personally, at Deity) It was possible to win by conquest before 0 AD.

Winning is fun. What was not fun (to me) were the games where I would steamroller my continent and one opponent would take over another. Often, because C2 AI was never very good at naval management, I would come out in a superior position but not an overwhelming one. A cold war can be fun, but not if it degenerates into a long military build up followed by a D-day type invasion. Endless building and resource management gets boring, as does endless combat. I would get in these situations and a question would rise in my mind: “I know I can win this, am I willing to spend hours pressing Enter and watching units move around to get there?” Usually, I would save the game and start over.

Also, to me, the game becomes less interesting the fewer opponents there are. In a number of games I would intentionally not destroy an obviously weaker civ just to keep it “in the game”.

From the games I’ve played, I think the balance in C3 is better. Military engagements lend to be more frequent but shorter, especially early in the game. Before the modern era, I have been successful at targeting perhaps one or two cities per game (on a standard map with 8 civs) for conquest, usually because they had access to strategic resources or location. But the decision is an ambivalent one. I’ve usually taken enemy cities as much to deny an opponent access to something rather than as a technique for expansion. Captured cities are almost never productive until many turns later, once one of them revolted and eliminated my garrison. That really stunk, but I retook the city a few rounds later. Since holding the city denied the other civ access to saltpeter, it was worth the cost.

In the modern era, it is possible to “blitz” an opponent, especially now that zones of control are eliminated. If you have a superior culture and you go straight for your opponents capitals and best developed cities, you can cut the heart out of the enemy and then take the periphery piecemeal. Some cities will revolt (on the upside, capturing the city doesn’t generate partisans) but, if you capture a few in the middle, you can disrupt the cultural network. The cultural radius of each enemy city no longer supports the others, even if they revolt a round later.

It is true, though, that a recently conquered opponent requires more resources to suppress than it generates. If you haven completely destroyed the civ, cities keep turning on you. They generate nothing of value in your hands. The whole thing seems non-productive.

Except, of course, that you deny these cities to your opponent. That is the basic strategic decision in C3, I think: “Is it worth the cost to deny this to my opponent”. If you actually want to make a captured city productive, the cost is much higher…which is why opposing civs, especially weaker ones, tend to raze cities they capture.

In C3 it is a tactical blunder to try to defeat a opponent from the outside inward. You fight and die just as hard while denying the least productive enemy cities. The purpose of each battle is to weaken the enemy. Avoid the periphery. Capture the capital or a well developed city. Pillage the local infrastructure. Sell off critical improvements like the cathedral or temple. Make a tactical retreat back into your own territory to regroup, heal and reinforce. The opposing civ will be forced to use military units to fortify and suppress recaptured cities. A few rounds later, you conduct a similar raid. I’ve been able to keep an opponent completely reactive (building only defensive military units, constantly struggling with starvation and domestic unrest) with a dozen units this way. Meanwhile, my cities acquire culture, technology, and improvements. Enemy workers improve my land.

In essence, I’m doing the same thing as before. It’s a “cold war” in which I slowly build up an advantageous position. But, round by round, I find it more interesting to play because the decisions are diverse and part of a broader strategic plan. There is some fighting, some building, and some negotiations.

If you want a more directly militarist campaign, I think turning down corruption is a good idea. When I played SMAC, I used to turn up the city defense percentage because I got tired of a single enemy unit making an early cheap shot against a city a continent away. By adjusting that number I made the game more enjoyable for me…and hell, I was playing not working, right?

In conclusion, however, I would like to point out that culture and corruption don’t favor peaceful vs. militarist civs. Being aggressive is still a good policy, but the kinds of useful aggression (bombardment, objective raids, search and destroy) beyond direct conquest make the military aspect of the game more, not less interesting…to me anyway. Think of the C3 rules as modeling a combination of Sun Szu (“be formless, keep the opponent reacting and defensive”) and Clauswitz (“politics by other means, eliminate the enemy will to fight.”). In this light, a moderate sized, elite, and flexible military is an essential component of success.

[Kindbud]

Well said, Garret

My two cents on Garrett's post are that for the first time I have a better idea on the game flow of Civ3. I knew I would have to modify (and in one way completly abandon) my Civ2 strategies but after 6 aborted starts I was still missing the "bigger" picture on game flow. Well written, Garrett...

[Libertarian]

Originally posted by Iloveculture
Stupid Noobish question

What is ICS?

Infinite City Sprawl.

[Pyrodrew]

I agree on many of the points Garret mentioned, yet would like to add some things.

Instead of supporting or trashing an element of the game, it seems better to ask the question: “what did the designer intend here”. From the games I’ve played, I think the balance in C3 is better.

I agree for the most part it is better, but it does need to be tweaked. Especially since they were tweaking the game up to the last minute. I think the corruption on Tiny & Small maps is 1 of those areas, evident by all the posts & Soren's comments. On Huge & Large maps corruption is fine the way it is.

Also, to me, the game becomes less interesting the fewer opponents there are. In a number of games I would intentionally not destroy an obviously weaker civ just to keep it “in the game”.

I strongly agree, but I wouldn't want the other extreme where killing a civ is impossible. I like knowing the threat of my civilization being "genocided" exists if I play poorly or anger too many civs. Knowing I could do anything & only be marginally hurt would suck.

As far as methods of success I would hope there is a wide variety to choose & adjust to depending on your situation & enemies rather than only 1 superior choice to find.

[Leonid]

There has to be a better way than cheats thru using the editor.

[aetherspoon]

Now, tell me if I'm wrong...

Note: I haven't played on a tiny map. I admit that. I tend to play on large maps so I CAN go on forever and ever in one map

Anyways, on a tiny map, if you had all of your bases on one continent, centered around the palace, and had an expansion on another island (or another part of the continent if you are going pangaea) and shipped a leader over there, wouldn't that solve the corruption "problem"? If it is by quantity of bases, the easiest solution would be to keep hovering around your capital and going to a democracy. Then, you focus on base improvements, get your culture up there, and slowly start taking possession of the AI bases through culture. The AI was the one to build up the base already, so you don't have to go through the 1 shield blues...

Would that work?

[Wolfgang76]

Something Wacked...

Corruption is really out of hand. I know that firaxis said they may have goofed on the small maps and I think I know why now.
I am currently playing a game on the small map and I have a city thats only about 20 squars away with a courthouse thats facing almost 92% corruption!@! WTF!!
No offense Firaxis but, come on!! With democracy, a courthouse I should at least get about 60%. Heck if this was real life our country (USA) would be toast due to the distance from Washington to LA. Although it might explain some things about LA....
Eitherway this really needs to be addressed in a patch. Tone it down a bit. Heck even 80% would be a boon for my Civ.

Wolf

[Farmer]

Well this old skool CivNet player would like to thank Ray K for his information and insights. While I'm not going to change the settings now, I think I probably will after a few games because it seems ridiculous to me to have 90% corruption in a democratic city with a court house. Maybe I can work around it by using a different strategy, but hey I like conquering the world and having cities on every continent. That's how I played thousands of games of Civ I&II, maybe I can have some fun with diplomatic and cultural victories, but I want to be able to kick ass as well.