Wny no Taj Mahal?

[Grumbold]

Statue of Liberty is at least an internationally recognisable status symbol in the same way as Big Ben, Empire State Building, Eiffel Tower, Buckingham Palace or the Taj Mahal. Unfortunately there are way too many of these to make them deserving of being wonders on that basis alone. The Constitution itself has a much lower relevance to anyone outside of the US even if it is something you feel justifiably proud of.

What we need is a sim-city like ability to import lots of 'feel good' architectureand place them uniquely in cities just ot make them look different. I had a moan before about how empty those city views look, with a few dozen houses surrounded by a massive wall that bears no relation to city size. Having the ability to populate the empty ground with historical features would be nice even if those buildings had no in-hame effect whatsoever.

[drake]

Hold it.
Pyramids were built out of a way of thinking and believing.
The people which actually built them were NOT slaves, and the architect which devised them reached god-like status along with the pharao to the egyptian.
They are the main efort of a civilisation.

Thinking and believing what? In some ridiculous god of the afterlife? The thousands of people that built it, built it for the good of the pharoah, not the country. The Pyramid had no function, other than to bury the royal families and to be looked at it in awe.

How do you know they werent built by slaves? No one knows for sure. In any case, it was built by workers, who worked for a living. They didn't do it because of some great ideal, they did it because it was a way to support themselves.

For the ancient world, the pyramids were an absolutely incredible structure. But what did it symbolize? A big huge gravestone for some mummies. Symobolically it was a show of the pharoahs power, not the civilization as a whole.

On the other end, WtC, Wall Street and the tall skyscrapers in NY are just a money machine, since the beginning. They were not created for pride or culture, but for money. Money. Money.

Money which raises standards of living. Money which raises literacy. Money which helps cure disease. Money which enables people access to technology to better themselves and educate themselves.

It is about culture. Whether you like the culture it creates I don't know. But please, please do not discount the cultural value of something like the NYSE.

I take pride in the fact that I live in a country in which I can make a decent living. Wanting the best for ones family is a universally recognized thing. Working to get what one wants is also a universally recognized concept.

Wall Street is not even the first stock exchange of the planet, and for the biggest part of history the main stock exchange has been London's one. And before you had Bazaars, etc.

Being the first doesnt mean being the best does it? Never before in the history of the world has the world economy been so dependent on one entity. Whether you want see it that way though.....

AFAIK, the skyscrapers were seen at the beginning as the NY respone to european cathedrals (US is not old enough to have old cathedrals) as "temples to wealth", but that's just American romance. In fact they were built after lack of space, tall in order to be ECONOMICALLY rewarding. Money. Money. ...

I don't get what youre saying here yol. You're saying that skyscrapers in general are about money and greed? Well I hate to have to point it out, but America isnt the only place to have skyscrapers

Oh, and we have plenty of cathedrals over here as well. Just not the really old ones. Was there a point?

[Rasbelin]

Originally posted by squid

LOL....What does it do?

I think it could be as a city defence wonder.

The Maginot Line may have been the worst defensive fortification of all time!

The Maginot line wasn't technically the worst
defense construction ever (it was a fortress
armed from top to toe), but it should have covered
the whole eastern border of France.

But I can see a certain amount of American
pessimism in your message.

[zoom200]

Also, No japanese wonders?

Tokyo tower, MITI, Seikan Tunnel, even bullet trains????

why should MIT be a wonder, wouldm't it be covered uner the city improvement "Universitiy".

[Rasbelin]

Re: Re: Re: Some shoots

Originally posted by jsw363

I went last summer and there were definitely people praying in the building, museum or not. You are also required to remove shoes and wear appropriate attire.

Your obviously talking of the Sultan Ahmet mosque,
just few hundred meters away from Hagia Sofia.
BTW, I know what I'm talking of, because I have
been in Istanbul.

As for the Tower of Babel, this shoudln't be a wonder since it is MYTHICAL.

Well, there has been argue on that matter,
but why couldn't the game include some
legendary mythical buildings (that might have
even excisted)?

[Rasbelin]

Originally posted by zoom200

why should MIT be a wonder, wouldm't it be covered uner the city improvement "Universitiy".

Then you could ask: Why to have Wall Street included
in the game, when there's the Stock Exhange?
Or: The Great Cathedral is useless when there's
the normal Cathedral, isn't that true?

Anyway, the MIT was just a suggestion.
We can always pick an another one;
King's College or University of Bologna.

[drake]

Well, there has been argue on that matter,
but why couldn't the game include some
legendary mythical buildings (that might have
even excisted)?

Like the Oracle?

Also, there werent things like Mikes chapel, Bachs cathedral, Leos workshop (well not in the game sense), shakespeares theatre and Marco Polos embassy. They're purely fictional entities.

So I guess my point is, that theres definetly room for a little fantasy in civ. Its based very loosely on historical information, so whats the harm?

And besides stories, the Hanging Gardens are almost mythical as well. The logistics are hard to explain and there is no real definitive evidence that they ever existed, besides from the legends.

[Rasbelin]

Originally posted by drake

Like the Oracle?

The Oracle wonder is a bit complicated.
No source has stated what oracle is
in question. Most likely it's the oracle of Delfi
in the Parnassos mountains (mainland Greece).
The oracle of Delfi is a true; the remains of the
temple still excist and they are a tourist attraction,
that has attracted even me.

Also, there werent things like Mikes chapel, Bachs cathedral, Leos workshop (well not in the game sense), shakespeares theatre and Marco Polos embassy. They're purely fictional entities.

The names are pure imagination, but the
Michelangelo's Chapel is the Sixteener Chapel in Rome and
the Shake's theatre is the Globe Theatre
(see my alt WoW list).

So I guess my point is, that theres definetly room for a little fantasy in civ. Its based very loosely on historical information, so whats the harm?

I agree with you. BTW, there Cure for Cancer WoW
in Civ II is also surreal, because until this day,
no cure for cancer has been found. But there's remark
on that in the WoW description (see Civilopedia).

And besides stories, the Hanging Gardens are almost mythical as well. The logistics are hard to explain and there is no real definitive evidence that they ever existed, besides from the legends.

But the other of the Seven Great Wonders of the World
are true (expect the Colossus, because there's no evidence).

[Cyclotron]

Originally posted by Rasbelin The Maginot line wasn't technically the worst
defense construction ever (it was a fortress
armed from top to toe), but it should have covered
the whole eastern border of France.

No, the Maginot line was actually a terrible idea and a strategic blunder. It was completely inadequate at fighting a mobile war, and was built to win WW1 when WW2 happened. It was ineffective and expensive. A fortress, no matter how big, isn't much more than a lump of concrete against tanks and troops that can simply go around it or pound it from the air. The Maginot line did more harm than good, as the Germans retreating from France turned the guns around and used them to harass the liberating armies.

But I can see a certain amount of American
pessimism in your message.

France lost, largely because of the Maginot line. There's no pessimism here, simply facts. Don't be silly and bigoted.

[drake]

The Oracle wonder is a bit complicated.
No source has stated what oracle is
in question. Most likely it's the oracle of Delfi
in the Parnassos mountains (mainland Greece).
The oracle of Delfi is a true; the remains of the
temple still excist and they are a tourist attraction,
that has attracted even me.

Well no doubt it was the oracle of delphi....but the structure alone definetly does not constitute wonder status. It was little more than an ancient fortune telling service which appealed to the people of the med. region.

Its "power" is what is mythical and fun to think about. I like having wonders that conjur up imagination and speculation, even if not entirely historically accurate.

Besides the cheesy sound effects and graphics, this site has some neat background: http://www.oracleofdelphi.com/oraclestory.htm

The names are pure imagination, but the
Michelangelo's Chapel is the Sixteener Chapel in Rome and
the Shake's theatre is the Globe Theatre
(see my alt WoW list).

I wish they had used these references, if you're certain thats what they represent. (Isn't it the Sistine Chapel you're referring to?)

[Rasbelin]

My opinion is that the Babel Tower would
be justified as a wonder in Civ III.
Don't forget that it's as the background image in
the mainscreen.

[Rasbelin]

Originally posted by drake

I wish they had used these references, if you're certain thats what they represent. (Isn't it the Sistine Chapel you're referring to?)

Im 100% sure on that. And you're right, it's
Sistine Chapel and not "Sixteener Chapel".
The Globe Theatre is the theatre, for which
William S. wrote his plays. It was reconstructed
in 1997 in Southwark, London, where it had been
until the late 18th century (damn Puritans, always
messing around ). Even I have been "forced"
read about it at school (even if I live in Finland).

[drake]

So do we have any real world examples of what bachs cathedral represents? How about Marco Polos embassy?

Any loose relations you might know of?

[HisMajestyBOB]

Now all the wonders are US-Euro centric

Why not Ibn-Something, the Arab who explored Eurasia instead of Marco Polo?
Angkor Wat? Other RotW wonders?

[CygnusZ]

Originally posted by drake
So do we have any real world examples of what bachs cathedral represents? How about Marco Polos embassy?

Any loose relations you might know of?

Yeah, I can answer for Bach's Cathedral.

Bach was employed at Neue Kirche Church from 1703-1707. He composed a new piece every single week by mandate and in addition wrote his own works. The clergy of the area though suspected that Bach did not make music purely for the love of god. Eventually he left to work in Weimar in 1708-1717, where he composed his most famous pieces including the Goldberg Variations.

Now, Looking at some picture's I'd be tempted to say that Civilization has a little historical error. As far as I can tell Neue Kirche is not a cathedral. If anybody has a way to determine this I'm all ears.