A late complain

[August Borms]

Damn, the thread just started to get back ontopic - sorry

[Stuie]

Originally posted by Faboba
Civilization is not about how great America is, it's about how great humanity is.

Exactly!! Just wanted to make everyone read that again.

[aiin]

Oh new game idea

Sid Meier's Americalization

You and the computer throw insults at each other to praise or bash America's place in history.

Plus MP will be build in and you will be able to talk trash with players all over the word.

[Sabre2th]

Originally posted by aiin
Oh new game idea

Sid Meier's Americalization

You and the computer throw insults at each other to praise or bash America's place in history.

Plus MP will be build in and you will be able to talk trash with players all over the word.

The sad part is that I think people would actually buy it

[Ozymandous]

Originally posted by Jason Beaudoin
Actually, I think Clinton was an intelligent, charismatic leader who, unfortunately, had a major weakness: young women that like to.... oh... nevermind.

I believe Bigbear was referring to the current President of the USA.

I know who he was referring to, "Clinton?" was a joke. You could probably tell who BigBear voted for in the last election as well...

Hmm, funny thing about Bush, his IQ is probably a little above the average US citizens IQ, yet people like to label him as "stupid". I guess all the upper-crust, "our-guy-didn't-win" folks don't like the fact that George W. is your "average man" emboddied in politics (IQ wise anyway) and not some smooth talker who lies through his teeth blatantly because of a huge ego.

Anywho, this thread wasn't about politics so I'll leave it at that.

(Edit: If George W. lies he'll do it bumbling and stumbling through a speech! Heh, but then, who, as your average American, wouldn't stumble and bumble when giving a speech in front of 20 people much less 200 million, heh)

[Sabre2th]

Anywho, this thread wasn't about politics so I'll leave it at that.

It wasn't meant for America bashing either. Say whatever comes to mind

[tuckson]

Re: please!

Originally posted by Yoleus
In first place:

EVERYBODY PLEASE STOP DIGGING CULTURAL TRENCHES!

Hmmm... Pity, I kinda liked it...

[Guest]

I can't believe I read every post in this thread! I guess I was just waiting for it to take a turn for the better, as you know, it never happened.

[tuckson]

Gee, I'm finding out I really like this tread. it's fun...
Well, here we go again...

Originally posted by Ozymandous

2. America is the world's police officer because WE'RE ASKED, or NO ONE ELSE WILL HELP STOP CRAP. Look at Bosnia, I don't remember any of the European powers stepping in and trying to stop genocide. I guess America should jus give hundreds of millions in cash and other aid as we do now without lending any kind of military aid as well??

Yeah right, what world do you live in?

Sure, the world would still exist without the USA, but tell me, where would all of the aid to all these countries of the world come from if not for the U.S? Europe? Asia? Africa? lol, yeah right.

I guess it's the same world as you. Only with some clear glasses. No-one asked the US to be police-officer. That's one thing most Americans said so much to themselves they started to believe it.

For the crap issue someone else already mentioned stuff like Vietnam and so on. For Bosnia? We were there... maybe not at our best, but we were there.

But as stated earlier, the US do nothing without seeing some benefit for themselves. Take the UN, For years the US refused to pay their contribution, up to millions of dollars. Now the US needs the world's support for the Afghan attacks, and suddenly it's being paid (Or at least promised, dunno if the money 's already transferred).

And eehhh... I'm pretty sure Holland really does receive NO aid from the US since WW2 and the Marshall plan( which actually also was a benefit for the US for they needed solid trade partners).

Originally posted by Ozymandous
And if Americans look at the circus of the Qubec people trying to declare independance from Canada, the scandal's of the British royal families, the French and German business dealings with known dictators and terrorists like Sudam Hussein, China's beat down on humanitarism, etc, how can the people in the US take anyone else seriously??

Well, actually if Americans look at those things, they'll think they're watching Jerry Springer. But ehh.. you forget the Dutch drugs and gay scene.

Seriously, The mentioned examples (except the british one maybe ) do not really match the example of your elections. Americans wants the world to believe that their president is actaually the most powerful man, maybe even the leader of the world. And he is elected through a media circus in which he (among others) may tell that his opponent smoked a joint 30 years ago? And this level of competition should point us to "the leader of the world"?

Nah... thanks...

Originally posted by Ozymandous
Face it, almost any country worth a damn in the world has their "differences" and thingsa that make them good and bad. It's easy to stand in the peanut gallery or on the side-lines and say "if we were ahead of the world we could do this", but hell it's better to be out front making mistakes (or not) and learning than sitting in the ass end of things and complaining about the driving.

Well, those mistakes may turn out to be pretty expensive ones. It's not like playing in a sandbox, you know. Of course every country has it good and bad.

That's what's making this discussion so much fun.

[tuckson]

Originally posted by BigBear
I know I am really late, but as an American I would like excersise my god given right to annoy foreigners with my ignorant and arrogant opinions:

LordGrey, that map was helarious.

Americans are the most powerful to ever exist. Not because of a powerful military or a huge economy, but because we have television and technology that allows us to extend are opinions and culture world wide.

We do have alot of incredibly stupid people over here, but every nation has their idiots. Our's just sometimes sneak into the presidency.

Not every American could be stupid and fat, otherwise, you would not be getting the greatest game of all time in 15 days.

If you guys dislike Americans so much, hit them where it counts, don't but American products, i.e. Civ 3.

"Dumm" is not the correct spelling.

Hmmm... Can't tell you why, But I really, really like your post.
Not bad for a settler... especially an American one (Sorry, can't let it go )

[tuckson]

Originally posted by Shiva
Revenge is not a valid motive? Maybe you need to take a good look at the human race but revenge has been around a long time and isnt going out of style soon. Just because you dont agree with it doesnt make it less valid than anything else.

Nope, Revenge is a often used motive for violence. However, this does not make it more valid.

Originally posted by Shiva
Let me point out where your statement is wrong. Lets use economics. Japan is in freefall, zero intrust loans, bad loans to companies that should fail, more bad loans to said companies because if they do fail the banks will close also because they have already invested to much money in them to write them off. Japan keeps spending money to keep the dollar proped up so that imports from them are cheep. Thing is you cant keep that up when you credit rating is downgraded to the same level as Barbados (spelling?). Only one thing will pull them out and thats the US buying thier exports because only we have that kind of buying power. But with the 911 attacks and our shutdown of the economy we're going to have a quarter of recession but in all likley hood just one.

I agree on the fact that the US buying Japanese products helps their economy. But again, that's no charity. The US needs Japan as much as Japan needs the US. Just like the US needs Europe and the rest of the world. Economies nowadays are far too much strangeld (Is this english? I mean sort of bound to each other, but then really, really close) to be serious in saying one does not need another. When somewhere economy goes down, It affects most of the world because of the globalizing of economies.

Originally posted by Shiva
Now lets take a look at the EU. The two biggest economies in it France and Germany are hurting. Both were flat before 911 with France having a very good chance of a recession and after the attack because of the damage to trade both are going to into recession. Germany might have been able to avoid it if it wasnt tied into the EUs inflexable monetary policy. Whats good for Italy isnt good for Germany and so on through the whole mess. The only hope Germany would have is to declare no confidence in the Euro but that would kill the new currency so its doubted that would happen. The only country that can pull the world economy out of its mess is the US, the US drives it. Sorry you cannot get along without it in the real world.

Of course I know of the EU and it's problems. A fact not known by most americans is that the dutch currency (Guilder) has always been in close relationship with the German one (Mark). Sometimes the guilder even replaced the Mark on the first place of strongest currency in Europe. So indeed introduction of the Euro is feared by many over here. However, When Europe as a Monetary Union is a fact, a much stronger tradepartner rises than just the sum of the member countries. And as unity makes power, I'm not sure the position of America remains the same in trade negotiations. Instead of small country governements the US has to deal with one larger governement. Of course Europe will benefit from trade with America. And it will take some time to fullfill the rise (Just as it took the states of America some time to act as a country). But I do not agree this can only be done with help of the US. Actually, the U.S. are not waiting for a united Europe.

Originally posted by Shiva
Also take a look at Nato. While the counties in Nato do have armies they do not the support equipment to make Nato effective without the US. Nato has been working on this but is still at least 5 years away from being able to operate effectively without US support. Thats the reason we had to get involved in the Balkans.
Once again the US is needed.

Did you pay your contribution already?

[Your.Master]

I wasn't going to get into this but...

This guy made me barf!

Originally posted by Falconius


First, the USA IS the best country in the world! That's why most of the world's immigrants come here.

Second, the world DOES need America! We tried to stay out of World War One, but had to come and save Europe from destroying itself. Then we tried to stay out of World War Two, but once again were forced out of our isolation to come save everyone from the warmongering Germans and Japanese. Then the British and French BEGGED us to keep troops in Europe and send some to the mid-east to counter the Soviet threat. Then we had to prop up the dying European economies with the Marshall plan.

Third, the US is now the world's police officer because the world NEEDS a police officer! After the experience of repeatedly going from war to isolationism, we were finally forced to stay out by the length of the Cold War. And we are merely replacing the British in their role of the "Balancer" in world affairs. With so many fires constantly igniting in the world that threaten to become greater conflagrations, the world needs someone to come along and put out the fire.

It would be nice to see some international body, like the UN, be given the authority to be the world's policeman, but so far that hasn't panned out. So the top dog is forced into the role. Who else is gonna do it? The Netherlands!?

Be thankful it was the Soviets that collapsed and not the US. Can you imagine the Soviets as world policeman? At least the US attempts not to harm civilians (depite the fact that we recently lost 6000 of them). A Soviet war machine might not be so polite.

a) last time I checked, propaganda makes immigrants come to a country. That and country size. You are much bigger than any European country, most countries in fact, so it's an unfair comparison anyway.

Incidentally, propaganda also brainwashes people to be like you.

b) you did not save anybody in WWI. Your help is, of course, appreciated, but it was very little, very late. WWI was won without America.

World War II, America had a larger part in. BECAUSE THEY WERE ATTACKED BY THE JAPANESE. You mostly fought the Japanese too, with the notable exception of the D-DAY invasion. Nevertheless, Germany was toast without America. The Soviets were the wons who truly won the war.

I don't know enough about that recent European history for me to argue the next couple of paragraph b) points.

c) No, the world does not need America. If not you, then another. And besides, many people are quite rightly ticked-off at that world cop affair. I agree, though, about the UN should be a world cop and that it hasn't panned out yet so America takes over in the interim.

d) Evil always loses in the end. The Soviets were crumbling from within; it was not American attacks that ended the union. America and Soviet Russia really only managed to scare people to death.

And as for more universal comments:

AMERICA is NOT the strongest country ever.

LOTS of countries have TV. Canadians even invented this thing called an "Omnimax", which is an all-around spherical TV theatre thingy. I don't know all the inventions of all the countries, so I won't list one for every country. But they have MANY.

A lot of knowledge comes out of America. Not 50% though. And it DOES come out of America, it can't be hoarded.

Really, many Americans are great. But on average, they are worse than most other developed countries (I have statistics to back this up: Canada, Sweden, and Norway have the brightest individuals, almost everybody is more informed about the world than Americans...remember, these are averages. THis is not an attack on you, but it does mean that it doesn't "balance out in the end".

[Shiva]

Originally posted by tuckson
I guess it's the same world as you. Only with some clear glasses. No-one asked the US to be police-officer. That's one thing most Americans said so much to themselves they started to believe it.

Sorry the heads of Nato asked the US to enter into the Balkans because they couldnt do the job without the US. They were also ask not to leave because it would destabilize the situation. Sure counts as being asked and just because its in our best intrest for Europe to remain stable doesnt invalidate it. The same with aid, and anything that is done. Welcome to the real world, all countries act it there best interest and if your going to invalidate one for doing please be fair and invalidate all if you would be unbiased.

Originally posted by tuckson
For the crap issue someone else already mentioned stuff like Vietnam and so on. For Bosnia? We were there... maybe not at our best, but we were there.

Thing is if europe would have dealt with the problem at the start the US wouldnt have had to get involved. Just like europe at the start of WW2.

Originally posted by tuckson
And eehhh... I'm pretty sure Holland really does receive NO aid from the US since WW2 and the Marshall plan( which actually also was a benefit for the US for they needed solid trade partners).

False. The only western european country that didnt was Spain. Check your history books.

[tuckson]

Originally posted by Shiva
I really hate it when fools (and thats the nicest word i'll use) in my own country say that we shouldnt build it when the loss of life, the damage to the economy, and the damage to future generations would be astronomical from just one missile. What I really find offensive is when morons from other counties say we shouldnt. Its real nice when chances are someone doesnt have a missile pointed at one of your cities. It would be real nice if those people in other counties whos people arnt at stake would kindly FO on this. Its real easy to put other people in harms way.

Hey, no need to get rude, Okay?
I just gave an example of the US going their own way instead of looking after other countries as soon as their interests differ.
(Also look at the US refusal of signing the recent environmental treaty).

The problem for the Rocket shield is that apearantly the US lack the capacity to think as others than only America itself. The rest of the world has no guaranty that After coompletion of the shield America backs off and hides behind the shield leaving the rest of the world unprotected. The balance of power in the world would seriously change. And I'm not sure that's a good thing.

[saracen31]

No-one asked the US to be police-officer. That's one thing most Americans said so much to themselves they started to believe it.

Kuwait didn't ask for our help in 1991?
Israel & the PLO don't both call every day asking for US help?
The US isn't called upon to mediate in Northern Ireland?

The list goes on & on. Of course we'll look out after our own interests - isn't that the definition of government? Looking after your own nation's interests?

To say no one asks us to act as police-officer is ridiculous. The US is asked all the time to mediate or take action all over the world.