c189# HAVE A LITTLE FAITH

[yin26]

And with that post, I have nothing else to add. Every single complaint I have *ever* made has been based on the horrid communication Firaxis has given us throughout the entire process. If various trolls here want to take that as an opportunity to make me their poster-boy for everything they feel wrong in this forum....Great. Have fun.

[korn469]

ok i have a couple of points

the level of insults in this thread are sickening

i have disagreed vehemently in the past with many people on here (especially with Ralf about SE) but there is no reason to make personal attacks

i hope Mark and Dan bans every person who make a personal attack until after civ3 comes out

also nobody on this forum (besides possibly Mark or Dan if they have received their preview copy yet) knows the quality of Civ3, and i am sure that it will have both positive and negative suprises in store for us

also both sides have valid arguments

one side says that firaxis has alot of experiance in making fun games, and not only that they have one of the most talented game developers in Sid so civ3 is going to rock

the other side says that the civ3 development process got off course somewhere, and infogrames made firaxis get civ3 out of the door by christmas and this could have hurt the game

those are the two main arugments and they haven't changed in months, the only good thing is that we will find out the answer to this in a few short weeks

the only thing i disagree with orange and others is on this point

The truth is, instead, of 'conspiring' to rip you off as the popular assumption goes, they're working day in and day out, taking YOUR suggestions, listening to what YOU the gamers have to say. None of this is required. You should be happy that Firaxis cares what you think.

This theory is unsupported by economics. Firaxis is a company which makes consumer entertainment products. It is one of many independent game developers. While it is correct to say that they have a talented staff, Firaxis will cease to exist if it stops pleasing its customers. Firaxis isn't the only game company that requests feedback from the fans, Firaxis isn't even the only game company on Apolyton that is trying to use customer feedback to make a better product. Check out the MoO3 forum and look at what Stormhound and the guys from Quicksilver Software are doing. I hope that Firaxis continues to turn out high quality enjoyable products, if they do this then they will stay in business. If not, then they will go the way of the Dinosaurs (pun intended). Just ask John Romero who is sucking it down now.

And for those people who think that the world of computer games is a bunch of cushy jobs in a perfect world of artistic expression, check out fatbabies

here are a few tasty tidbits from then

In the wake of the head-on train wreck known as Majestic, Don "We don’t need no stinkin’ subscribers—It’s all about eyeballs" Matrick is said to be on his way out.
Unconfirmed reports only, however, at this point. See our 10/10 Story on Majestic for additional information.

10/10 EA's Matrick Gone?
Oddworld Inhabitants, makings of the Abe’s series of character platform games, reportedly has laid off a number of staff now that the company’s latest project, Munchee’s Odyssey, is undergoing final testing for release candidate at Microsoft.

The latest iteration in the Oddworld universe cost a reported $7 million for the one X-Box SKU.

10/10 More Rumors
From the Rumor Mill:

Cinematix Studios in Tempe, Arizona is not looking long for this world.
- Not paying contractors
- No front money from a publisher -- just an offer to split revenues once the product is on the shelves because another publisher said, (paraphrasing for delicate ears), "I would not spit on that title if it was on fire."

Titus has its own cash flow squeeze, not counting the bleeding from Interplay. There are Rumors of meetings with the bankers for bridge funding through first quarter of 2002.

i can post more, but you get the point: for every success story there are alot of failures

[Shiva]

Originally posted by yin26
I have said publically many many times that the List contained almost NO ideas of my own. If you had been around, you'd know that well.

I have been. Shouldnt assume just because I dont post that I havnt been here (although most of my time was watching Vel and the rest come up with strats in SMAC).

Originally posted by yin26
Me as savior? Hardly. Me as somebody who damn-well has earned the right to complain loudly when Firaxis repeatedly dodges an important question, leaks out information but won't confirm it, etc.? Damn straight.

As I said in the last thread they have their own things to deal with behind closed doors and they dont owe you any answers. You just dont seem to understand that. As I said last time take a look around at the way the gaming industry has been run the 15 or so years and you'll see the same thing. They'll answer the questions when the time is right (which is looking to be the oct22 if not tomorrow in chat). And there is a big big difference between complaining loudly and what you have done. By your own words you mean to hurt them financially. You the one who said it after all.

Originally posted by yin26
And this is a forum. If you don't like my posts. Pack your bags 'cause I ain't going away until *I* feel like it. In fact, a$$-kissing articles like Orangie's here will KEEP me here. Consider that.

Really dont care if your here or not. Just if you post drivel. You used to want to help the game. Now since you decided that Firaxis has offended you, you peddle you little jihad here. You really need to take a look at yourself. There are better ways to do it than being destructive.

Originally posted by yin26
My thread was directed toward the company in general. And a great number of people have similar feelings that Firaxis blew it on that one. And, yes, as a result I stand by my statement that if Firaxis loses some money for such a purposefully mishandling of PR, then:
I will be happy. Why? 'Cause maybe they'll think to do better next time. Crazy thought, eh?

A great number? Funny I dont see this great hoard? Could you point them out. Was there some mass canceling of pre-orders? Sure didnt look like they were by what was in that tread. The only reason you'll be happy is because you'd feel vindicated. As I said before the number of people here are a drop in the bucket of people who'll buy and play Civ3. The few, if any, who heeded your call wont be missed.

[Shiva]

Originally posted by korn469

This theory is unsupported by economics. Firaxis is a company which makes consumer entertainment products. It is one of many independent game developers. While it is correct to say that they have a talented staff, Firaxis will cease to exist if it stops pleasing its customers.

Yes, companies try to please the customer however they are the final arbitrator of what goes in and what doesnt. Not the fan. Add to that the fact that a publisher will put their cents in also. Which again will be what they think is right. They after all have all the facts of the matter unlike the people here.

[korn469]

Shiva

Yes, companies try to please the customer however they are the final arbitrator of what goes in and what doesnt. Not the fan.

while the company may decide what goes in and what doesn't (which is what game designers get paid to do) the customers will be the final arbitrator of the game, about the only company that can disreguard the customer is Microsoft in the OS market, in the game market no company has the ability to totally disregaurd its customers and stay in business

They after all have all the facts of the matter unlike the people here

Infogrames and Firaxis wishes they had all of the facts!
while they obviously have more facts than we do right now nobody can say with 100% certainty what the choices made on Civ3 will mean for the long term, the people at Infogrames are highly payed to make the best educated guesses they can, and lets hope that they have made the right ones

nobody here wants civ3 to be a bad game, not even yin

[yin26]

nobody here wants civ3 to be a bad game, not even yin

That is true.

[Shiva]

Originally posted by korn469
Shiva

while the company may decide what goes in and what doesn't (which is what game designers get paid to do) the customers will be the final arbitrator of the game, about the only company that can disreguard the customer is Microsoft in the OS market, in the game market no company has the ability to totally disregaurd its customers and stay in business

I didnt mean a total disregard But they do go with what they think can be done in a given time period, certain amount of money, and with the feedback of whoever is doing the testing (and with some of the bigger publishers, studies). They'll take all of that in before they even think of going out side of the house for anything else.

Originally posted by korn469
Infogrames and Firaxis wishes they had all of the facts!
while they obviously have more facts than we do right now nobody can say with 100% certainty what the choices made on Civ3 will mean for the long term, the people at Infogrames are highly payed to make the best educated guesses they can, and lets hope that they have made the right ones

Thats what I meant even if I didnt lay it out as well as you did Thing is alot of people are not giving the benefit of the doubt and they're doing that with far less facts than the people calling the shots.

As for Yin, maybe its true he doesnt want it to fail, however he is being far from helpful and in some cases down right divisive.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Culture, ICS-fixes, Resources...on and on all came from HERE...while you were busy thinking up clever ways to tell us to shut up after all the work was done. You're brilliant.

And you are so sure? Firaxis never had any ideas of their own.. it was all Apolyton!!!

Once again, the arrogance of Yin, the man with the Napoleonic Complex.

[lorien]

I don't know about you all - but I have found the easiest way do deal with Yin - put him in the Ignore list and ignore him.

Just treat him like any other troll.

[MarkG]

we are going to have an extra edition of the column on wednesday. if someone wants to write a "counter-column"(or a "counter-counter-column" ), it will be included

[Father Beast]

Re: I HAVE THE SOLUTION!!!!

Originally posted by cassembler
Yeah I've been looking FOREVER for another thread about the whole Optimist vs Pesimist argument... Whew, I really didn't think that we've argued enough about it yet.

THE SOLUTION TO ALL OF IT:
If you don't like the criticism (aka complaining) then find another message board.

If you don't like the praise (aka blind faith) then find another message board.

If you don't want to buy Civ3, then don't.

If you do, then do.

-------------------------------------

If you're looking to kill time until Civ3 comes out, the yeah, argument is fun.

If you're happy and you know it, clap your hands.
If you're not, then don't.

Ahh... True beauty. Simple and elegant. (clap, clap)

No more complaining about the complainers.

and Orange, have a little more faith in Yin. He will enjoy the game with the rest of us, no matter what he says. Just like Firaxis will give us an awesome game, no matter what they've told us. Just be happy.
Lay off Yin. to defame a man, a legend......


Don't worry, be happy.

Multiplayer is in. I'm happily playing the demo. Road and rail rules have been modified. all is beautiful.

[Yoleus]

A spoonload of water...

...is what we are arguing over, I think.

In first place: faith?
Are we devoted to Sid religion, inside a big Firaxis church?
That's probably a badly chosen word, forgive me.
I personally think anybody shoud complain, if he thinks the game
is not going to be good: either the game is really bad, or the info-marketing campaign is bad, or you are out of the market target.
In either case you have the right to complain, I think.
This DOES NOT mean that you can get personal, obviously, or
that you are entitled to be less than polite!
Finally: the game will ship, sell and be paid. This is the only reply
Firaxis bosses (not all the developers, just the bosses) will listen to. If we are the market target, the game is bad and it will not sell, well they will probably change something NEXT TIME.
If many of us are not satisfied, we can easily look to the alternatives, and for those of you that do not know of them there are plenty of freewhare versions of civ, like freeciv! You can help make THESE suit you by programming or suggesting, not just by complaining.

[Grumbold]

I'm not quite sure what this article is trying to say. Certain standards, like refraining from obscenities, are part of the forum rules, even if they are not always rigidly enforced. Some posters seem to forget this and like to spend time indulging in harsh personal attacks against anyone expressing a view sufficiently different to their own. That should definitely be prevented, but we don't need an article to tell us that, and MarkG does his best to quash the worst cases. "Civ Optimists" can be just as guilty as "Civ Pessimists".

Leaving aside unacceptable language, we're left with unfounded criticism. With freedom of speech this is just as valid as unfounded optimism. Indeed very little is truly unfounded although some might be biased because it is all based on how the poster perceives previous Firaxian actions and statements.

It is now too late for any debate here to affect the content of the game - and I think we can be confident that at least some of our discussion and reactions were listened to in the past. A peaceful means of triggering golden ages is a recent one that immediately springs to mind, let alone the huge "List". Until the game is actually released and real feedback about how the game plays starts filtering back we are pretty much just spinning our wheels. Perhaps that is the reason for some of the harsher language lately - the frustration of knowing that if this game turns out to not be the perfection you had hoped for it is going to be years before another alternative arrives, if ever.

We all need to try and keep cool, and posters need to remember that "Civ3 will be great" is as provoking to some as "Civ3 will Suck" is to others Neither arguement can be proven until release day.

[korn469]

We all need to try and keep cool, and posters need to remember that "Civ3 will be great" is as provoking to some as "Civ3 will Suck" is to others Neither arguement can be proven until release day.

exactly grumbold!
ps you haven't posted as much lately...i always enjoy reading your posts, and i hope when civ3 comes out that we can discuss it at length

[Grumbold]

I had a holiday abroad then took some of my own advice. Bought a couple of good games that were on the shelves ready to go. When you're in the middle of a really entertaining firefight then who is being spiteful about whom or ranting about some minor feature here on Apolyton seems unimportant. Once Civ 3 hits the UK you can bet I will want to talk about it, both the bits I do and don't like