c189# HAVE A LITTLE FAITH

[yin26]

Lame...

Money-driven means this: If the people to whom they are marketing the game passively sit by and say NOTHING when announcements of 8 civs, etc., are made, they conclude that: "If the harcore segment of the market isn't raising a fuss, we have a green light."

Now if I am up for it, I might give all you people here who weren't paying attention these past 2 years the complete story of how and when things happened. With 8 civs, there was a tremendous outcry on these forums, similar to the MP one, and then things 'mysteriously' changed at Firaxis. ICS is straight from the forums because the vocabulary was from here...and I sent a special outline of the issue to Firaxis about it.

Am I saying that *I* somehow saved Civ3? No. Only you trollers here are putting those words in my mouth.

So I repeat: You passive hero-worshippers here are the enemy to a good Civ3. Everybody who has stood up in his own way by giving ideas or criticism deserves to be applauded.

HOW DARE they speak indeed! Puke.

[kolpo]

This artickle is nothing more then flames to people who have another view then the autor of that article. There no single good argument in it.

[Earthling7]

For the first time in a long time I read an article and wish I had written it myself.

I'm with you 100%.

I hope Dan gets to read it.

[Ralf]

but how dare any of you 'righteously' make rude and unproven statements that defame a man, a company, a myth, and a legend.

Orange - I basically agree with your article, but I feel above is a little too excessive for my taste. Keep things in perspective.

Originally posted by yin26
And Hero worship of Sid along with blind faith in a money-driven company makes me gag. End of story.

Yin26 quote from the past. Click and read:

"Having said that, I have immense faith in Sid. He has earned it, afterall".
"I will say, though, that they have a tremendous awareness of public opinion and have seen first-hand patch issues and so forth. And I also think Firaxis will trust them for that..."

Originally posted by yin26
Money-driven means this: If the people to whom they are marketing the game passively sit by and say NOTHING when announcements of 8 civs

In this thread Yin26 explains why Why 7 Civs could be a GREAT indicator...

By the way: Im still dont think its possible to play against more than max 7 AI-civs, simply by choosing large or huge maps. Yes, I know about that Ask the Civ-team map-size answer, but that doesnt prove you can choose to play with so many civs directly from the World Setup screen. Its perhaps possible by some "backdoor maneuver", but officially unsupported. The foreign advisor screenshot for example, only seems to support max 8 simultaneous Civs. How do you guys explain that?

Finally, why would they choose such a rigid map-size + number of Civs possible solution? If the player wants to play against 7 AI-civs on a small map - or against 4 AI-civs on a large map, he should obviously be abe to do that. If those map-related Civ-numbers are to be taken literally, then why havent they added number of Civs along with planet-size, in that world-size setup screenshot? I think you guys jumping to conclusions here. Unless this gets officially clarified once and for all, I remain sceptical.

-------------------------- edited:

The world setup has been updated: http://www.multiplayer.it/show.php3?...500/s_img7.jpg

[yin26]

Notice I said "blind" faith in Sid. I trust him...to a point. Obviously I think that the fan can help make the game better. But simply saying 'Don't criticize because he is Sid' does NOBODY any good...not even to Sid.

As for the 8 civs, it doesn't matter what side of the controversy I was on PERSONALLY. The point is still the same: A great number of people here wanted to play with 16, so there you have it. I still think they were going with 8 for the reasons I listed.

BTW: Nice research!

[yin26]

But here's one you missed:

Bottom Line: LET'S NOT MAKE CIV3 ANOTHER "PATCH A PATCH" MELODRAMA! If that requires a public or much expanded closed-beta, great. If that means cutting out some features to focus on this stuff, great.

Pretty clear what side of the issue I am on: Reasonable Quality and listening to fans / keeping them informed as much as possibe. And yet still people attack that position.

[yin26]

And as for how more than 8 civs will be possible, I was clear on that, too:

And rather than make us hack a .txt file, please just make it a option from the get go for people who want to play against more opponents at once despite the lack of playtesting.

[CapTVK]

THIS GAME IS GOING TO SUCK...
...or at least you'd think so based on what most of the Apolyton posters have to say, yet what authority do they have to speak out against a game they have yet to play or experience?

Well sorry Orange, but this is a forum about civ in general. The posters here are a little more interested in civ than general. And the authority they proclaim is based on previous experience with civ related titles. And there's a difference between *****ing and critizing. In the same way a movie critic will review a movie. But that doesn't stop YOU from going to the movie is it.


What I find annoying is people who critize the critics. It's only a game, don't you have something better to do?

Plain and simple - if you don't like what you hear, cancel your order...but how dare any of you 'righteously' make rude and unproven statements that defame a man, a company, a myth, and a legend.

Oh boy...

Okay everybody, repeat after me!

"Firaxis is GOOD,
Firaxis is my friend....."

"Firaxis is GOOD,
Firaxis is my friend....."

"Firaxis is GOOD,
Firaxis is my friend!"

[Ralf]

Originally posted by yin26
Pretty clear what side of the issue I am on: Reasonable Quality and listening to fans / keeping them informed as much as possibe. And yet still people attack that position.

I agree with you on one thing: And that is, regardless if one think their info-policy have been OK, or not - the info they actually DO publicize, from time to time, should have been more sensitive when it came to parry follow-up questions in advance. NOT by answering more questions in the forums afterwards (after all; there are LOTS of Civ-3 forums out there - not just Apolyton, and their time is limited, and after work they DO have a privat life as well - I understand all that), but on the official Civ-3 site.

Take that map-size question for instance. Couldnt the Firaxian who answered that question imagine that people would immediately jump to conclusions, and parry that in advance by adding 1-2 extra lines of positive/ negative clarifications? Just in order to avoid uneccessary follow-up questions?

[Ralf]

Originally posted by CapTVK
Oh boy...

Okay everybody, repeat after me!

Try to raise the level of your comments, please. Its not that they (and I) base their confident viewpoints about the game out of thin air, you know. We all know pretty much about the game already (go and read Civ-3 Fanatics impressive Info Center, for instance).

Concentrate on analyzing why you must whine so much about something you havent even played yet. OK, so that MP-feature got delayed, or some other feature wasnt implemented. So what? One get disappointed for a while (and yes, I have also whined from time to time), but then one moves on...

[Earthling7]

Originally posted by Ralf
Take that map-size question for instance. Couldnt the Firaxian who answered that question imagine that people would immediately jump to conclusions, and parry that in advance by adding 1-2 extra lines of positive/ negative clarifications? Just in order to awoid uneccessary follow-up questions?

I imagine they want to get people talking ans speculating. It builds up the interest for the game. If it wasn't for the Internet, I might be doing other things, ignoring the Civ3 issue until it comes out. Now I'm here, exchanging comments on the game and dying to play it.

If that's what they want, they're succeeding.

[eohian]

Firaxis does owe us

Every game developer owes the people who play their games, they owe them for their livelihoods. They are smart to listen to the people who play their games, whether they are Sid or a first time developer.

There is no excuse for rudeness but Firaxis shouldn't be given the benefit of the doubt either. This is their first shot at CIV since they were formed and I can only hope it turns out better (MP, I mean) than Alpha.

As far as screen shots, you say they don't have to show us anything, and that is true but they do show us screen shots to keep our interest, IT IS MARKETING so give us a break with the they don't have to do anything but put it out.

It would probably be successful even if it sucks because of Sid but if it does suck, it would be the last one, hence all the marketing to get everyone on board. From what I have seen the guys at Firaxis (and I have met a number of them at the Game Developers Conference) are not listening to the players but rather are developing the game they want. That's fine it's worked before and games have been developed listening to the players and sucked in the past but this group is pretty full of themselves and think they know best, time will tell.

But Firaxis does owe me, I've purchased 4 of their games so don't say any different.

[Sarxis]

Firaxis doesn't owe you anything.

You paid for 4 previous products, and 4 products you have recieved.

I guess I just don't see how they owe you anything at all.

[Crouchback]

Originally posted by Anunikoba
Firaxis doesn't owe you anything.

Or from Orange's column:

Firaxis has no obligation whatsoever to give you ANY information at all. They could very easily produce this game, put it on the shelves, and say like it or leave it.

What is this, the Firaxis marketing team working out the strategy for their next game release?

Sid: 'Don't tell anyone what we're doing this time.'
Jeff: 'Yeah, and ban anybody who complains from giving us money.'

I have to tell you this ain't a winner. Game companies want us to buy their products they are going to have to provide quality and customer service.

Now I actually think Firaxis understand that and are doing it. But the radical "shut your mouth, and take what your given" group are as out of order and rude as the whinger faction that dominate some threads. There is a middle path here guys, which most of us are trying to tread called constructive criticism.

David

[yin26]

But on the official Civ-3 site

Precisely. Just makes no sense how much of the info. was dealt with. While the game itself might stun me and be an A+ product, the PR has been very close to (if not actually) an F. Who cares? Well, I suppose Firaxis could see all the chaos as funny, but somehow I don't think so. Which just makes you wonder why this end of things was --again-- handled so ineptly?