Modern era special units

[mactbone]

"A mardagrida and a cof a cuppee fer me wife!"

(It's from Elephant Parts)

[DonJoel]

First off not all special units will be obsolete or did you forget about the Panzer? It will show up before the F-15 so I guess that would blow your whine about them making America the best since it will goto the end of the game also. In your arguement that should make the Panzer a worse offender yet you say nothing (nice signature btw) for some odd reason about Germany.

Shiva please. Before you start throwing everything you got at me atleast get your facts right. The panzer will be obsolete by the modern armor.

All im saying is that there wouldnt be much purpose being any other civilization than the one that gets their special unit forever, if that is the case.

[Internationalist]

I'll agree with people saying that F-15s, F-16s, F-18s, F-14s and a-10s(each for SPECIFIC tasks).I would throw in F-4s wild weasels(electronic warfare)and A-6s also.. This is not the point, though. The point is, there is F-22 replacing F-15s and soon JSF/X-35 replacing most other fighter craft(U.S. ones that is). Also its a fact that these forces you're talking about is close to be called cannon fodder even for semi advanced fighters.Iraqi air forces? That's a joke! Air pilots inexperienced and poorly trained, flying Mig-25s(I think) and mirage F-1's?Do you even know how much outdated these are compared to modern fighters?
I don't know the experience of Serbian fighter-pilots, but still they only had a handfull of Mig-29s or 31s.Rest was much less advanced. There are very good fighter planes out there you know.
Have you ever heard of Sughois and what they can do? India has some Su-29 ,I think China and possible several latinamerican countries will have that,too. Already there are designs for fighters called Mig-35,Su-37/S-32,Mig 1.32.These are not puppet planes.
I believe all are stealth too.And there are already out there, Russian adder missiles(possibly even better, I haven't been checking the past few years), considered equal or sometimes better than some of their western counterparts?Finally fighters are also threatened by land weapons like S-300 missile launchers.These are also under updating processes.
Western world was never up against such threats.None knows how good or bad they'll react to eachother.Really big powers with well trained pilots and modern weaponry would really be a threat and I'm sure Western world officials now that.
As I final note, I want to make 2 observations:
1)Stealth fighter should be the F-22.F-117A is usually used as a bomber so calling it a fighter would just be wrong.It's more like B-2 and B-1 bombers, with a smaller payload.
2)Europe has fighter planes of 4th gen. also. I would like to see Ef-2000, though it's probably slightly worse in action than F-15Es and Su-31s.

[Shiva]

Originally posted by DonJoel


Shiva please. Before you start throwing everything you got at me atleast get your facts right. The panzer will be obsolete by the modern armor.

All im saying is that there wouldnt be much purpose being any other civilization than the one that gets their special unit forever, if that is the case.

Yeah forgot about the M-1. Thing is the Panzer will still trigger the golden age late just like the Americans which is one of your complaints in a post above.


Thing is all you have been crying about is something based on no facts. You dont know but your damn well going to whine about it with no factual basis. Calling it a cheating bonus, saying that people are going to pirate the game because of it, ect. Since you have stated a number of times that WE dont know why do you keep whining about it?

You still havnt stated how the F-15 is unbalanced. Why? Does in have longer range? Better attack? Cheaper to build? What? No your too busy running in circles yelling that the sky is falling.

Come back when you have something to base you whine on.

[DonJoel]

Calling you stupid is an insult to stupid people.

As i have stated a million times the fear is that the f-15 isnt going to be obsolete, which means that you can use it in the year 2347 if you like. I dont know if it gives better attack or defense or range but I dont care about that, the thing is it should be obsolete.
If thats not the case, fine, but if it isn´t it quite frankly sucks.
I dont mind you arguing about what i say but PLEASE read it through and try to understand what the point of my message is before you starts to yell at me like some frightened child.

[Shiva]

Originally posted by DonJoel
Calling you stupid is an insult to stupid people.

As i have stated a million times the fear is that the f-15 isnt going to be obsolete, which means that you can use it in the year 2347 if you like. I dont know if it gives better attack or defense or range but I dont care about that, the thing is it should be obsolete.
If thats not the case, fine, but if it isn´t it quite frankly sucks.
I dont mind you arguing about what i say but PLEASE read it through and try to understand what the point of my message is before you starts to yell at me like some frightened child.

As I said come back when you have something to base you whine on. And please stop the name calling because you show your age.

[DonJoel]

Well you started it. My guess is that you are younger than me.

[mactbone]

Hmmmmm, how many times should I post this?

Everyone keeps saying that the JW has such weak attack and everything, but look at *all* of the ancient units. Notice a trend?

1.1.1 Warrior
1.1.2 JW
1.2.1 Phalanx
1.3.1 Hoplite
etc., etc.

They *all* look worthless if you try to think of them in terms of Civ2 but when taken in context they aren't as sucky as you think.

Why would a Panzer roll over opponents but a JW not? Wouldn't it make less of a difference with modern units if a/d/m is only changed by one? Take these hypothetical stats -

6.5.2 Tank
7.5.2 Panzer
8.5.2 Modern Tank

Mathematically the difference between 1 and 2 is a LOT more than the difference between 6 and 7.

So what does it matter if the F-15 has one more attack than a normal fighter, so what if it isn't obslete? Hey, just remember, the F-15 isn't a regular unit, it uses air strikes. So it won' be like a ground unit.

[Shiva]

Originally posted by DonJoel
Well you started it. My guess is that you are younger than me.

You need to reread my posts and refresh your memory because I havnt called you one name no matter how childish you have acted. The only thing I did was to tell you to calm down since you were acting like a child the first time you started name calling.

If you want to make broad sweeping generalzations with no facts to back said statement up in a public forum dont be suprised when someone calls you on your lack of facts to base said statements on. If your feelings are going to get hurt by being called on them then the answer is to not post baseless statements and certainly the answer isnt to start calling names like a child.

[Shiva]

Originally posted by MacTBone
So what does it matter if the F-15 has one more attack than a normal fighter, so what if it isn't obslete? Hey, just remember, the F-15 isn't a regular unit, it uses air strikes. So it won' be like a ground unit.

That what I keep asking him but hes going out of his way to not answer.

[Patriqvium]

Good point, MTB. We don't know how air units will be in Civ3 - whatever their way of functioning is, it seems to be that it isn't the same that it was in the earlier games.

[DonJoel]

No shiva you started. You do alot of talking all the time but you got nothing to say. And can you please stop bullying me all the time and actually try to say something constructive.

Can you give me 1 reason to why 1 nation should have their special unit forever and all the other 15 should not?

Or, it isnt just because you are american that you want the american nation to have that advantage? Of course not....

[Ozymandous]

Seems to me I remember a progression of units in Civ2: fighter, bomber/aircraft carrier, helo, cruise missle, stealth fighter/bomber.

Last I checked the F-15 is NOT a stealth aircraft and it's highly doubtful it will become one in the game.

With this being the case, I highly doubt the American UU, the F-15 will be the end-all, be-all unit of the end-game when there will more than likely be at least one GROUP of units (stealth) that are better.

Now then can we please end the immature name calling? Thanks!

[mactbone]

Welllll, you could avoid researching Modern Tanks thereby getting the Panzer forever...

Or how about any unit at all, just don't research a better version...

Oh, and how come you deny the possibility of a better fighter???

[Shiva]

Originally posted by DonJoel
No shiva you started. You do alot of talking all the time but you got nothing to say. And can you please stop bullying me all the time and actually try to say something constructive.

Can you give me 1 reason to why 1 nation should have their special unit forever and all the other 15 should not?

No I didnt start the name calling as you so stated in your last post. Infact I havnt called you a name yet. I have commented on the way you act.

You toss out baseless statements then call it being bullied when ask to support your answer with something close to a fact? Please. Somehow complaining about something that no one outside the testers knows anything about is "constructive"? I love your convoluted logic

Can I give you a reason why 1 nation should have thier special unit forever? First off no one knows if they will but lets set that aside since speculation without facts seems to be your strongpoint. Lets say the F-15 is the pinacle of all fighter developement in the game. Without knowing what makes it so better than whatever jet fighter will be in the modern era we have to fall back on what we know of the other special units and the differnce between them and the unit they are based on. Since MacTBone has kindly posted a chart of units lets go there and add a few more.


1.1.1 Warrior
1.1.2 JW

1.1.2 Chariot
2.1.2 Egyptian War Chariot

2.1.1 Archer
2.1.2 Babylonian Bowman

1.2.1 Phalanx
1.3.1 Hoplite

3.2.1 Swordsman
4.2.1 Persian Immortal

4.3.2 Knight
4.3.2 Indian War Elephant (doesnt need Iron or horse)
4.4.3 Chinese Rider

6.5.2 Tank
7.5.2 Panzer
8.5.2 Modern Tank

Looking at these special units side by side with their base units none of them are overpowering in the least bit (although the Chinese Rider get a bonus in both defense and movement and other units only get one bonus). Since there is this trend of units being just a little better than the base units the logical conclution is that its going to continue with the rest of the units. Given that then the F-15 will not be much more powerful than the Mig (or is that an SU?) that it looks to be based on. Given that and not knowing what the cost to build either are (want to make a bet the F-15 takes more shields to build?), I'd say that if and that is an IF the F-15 costs more than the Mig to build it is more than fine if it goes till the end of the game (do you really think a game will last till 2347 or do you just like big numbers like that to inflame peoples fears). Even if it doesnt cost more than the Mig to build its advatage (if the trend holds true) is certianly not a gamebreaker, a cheating bonus (your words), nor a reason to pirate the game(again your words).

Also lets just get rid of one of the other effects of the F-15 you have been whining about with no basis. The Golden Age can be trigered by building a wonder (or wonders) that satisfies both strengths of the Americans. So their golden age can come a hell of alot sooner if they're trying to keep up with the everyone else in the wonder department.

Lets also look at the Panzer for a sec. Its sure to cost less than the M-1 right? Without knowing if you cannot build it once the M-1 is in use or knowing what the difference in hitpoints are lets assume it costs less and is only slightly lacking in hitpoints and we can still build it.
Panzers could still be effective if its attacking the M-1 (7 attack vs 5 defense) and still could show up on the battle field as a filler for forces (since its cheaper) just like the USSR kept the T-55 in service into the 80's to flesh out its army. With a defense of 5 (same as the M-1) and a few less hitpoints it could still defend effectively. Eclipsed yes, obsolete no, useless no.

Now lets deal with this silly little statement:

Originally posted by DonJoel
Or, it isnt just because you are american that you want the american nation to have that advantage? Of course not....

No sir, it is not because I am an American that I want the Americans to have that advantage nor have I said they should have one at all. All I have done is called into question your silly, groundless, inflamitory post and asked for you to back them up which you havnt. Instead you call names, tossed out even more baseless numbers, and lie. What I want is the facts and the truth when someone makes silly statements like:

Originally posted by DonJoel
I hope Firaxis realize that making America get this cheating bonus doesnt look very good, I think that making your own country be better than others is a little bit low and will only encourage people to pirate the game.

First you dont kown what they are doing so do yourself a favor and give it a rest till you do know.Second of all stop the childish name calling. If you cant back up the stuff you post dont get mad just dont post in the first place. Third if you have some kind of a problem with america or americans dont let it taint your posts as it did in this one.

Btw I still am wondering why you still havnt stated how the F-15 is unbalanced. No facts to base it on perhaps?