Modern era special units

[GaryGuanine]

SoulAssassin,

While you're right, you don't have to be so arrogant. While I agree that the F-14, armed with AIM-54 Phoenix missiles (you got it, Dexter ), is probably the best air superiority fighter we have, I'm surprised that you'd find Lockeed-Martin employees or Air Force people saying so, since it's made by Grumman and flown by the Navy.

And regarding dogfighting, we've all seen Top Gun, and know about the F-4's 20mm cannon. They were saying that dogfighting is dead then. We fought against Iraq, but who knows what would happen if we fought against a modern enemy with top ECM technology? Not that I know anything about secret anti-missile technology, but history is replete with examples of people claiming something is finished when it isn't.

Gary Guanine

[GaryGuanine]

Double post

[joseph1944]

Originally posted by faded glory
Dogfighting is obsolete. Its good to know and have, but so is a sidearm pistol.

41 Iraqi MiG's and Mirage F-1's were shot down in desert storm. All the Iraqi pilots were shot down before they even saw the F-16's and F-14's they were up against. From 100 miles out usaully...

The same story in Serbia...and Libya.

Dogfighting is somthing of the past. But its good to have anyway. Russian MiGs make that mistake. They base there whole system around the premise that it will get into a dogfight. This is almost never the case

Dogfighting is not obsolete. Each and every Mig shot down in Iraq was in a dogfight.
Yes they used missile, however they had to see the Mig before they could shoot.
The F-15 shot down most of the Iraq planes. The F-15/16 carried the AIM 7M Sparrow with a max range of 62 miles, and the AIM 9L Sidwinder with a max range of 11 miles.
The Sparrow is radar guided missile and therefore the F-15/16s had to see the Mig before they could shoot. That means keep the radar lock on the Mig so the Missile would hit the target.
If I would take the time, I could tell how many F-14s shot down a Mig in the Gulf War. I know this, it was very, very few. (Note: I just look at World Airpower Journal Vol 6 Summer 1991. The F-18 scored the only US Navy kill against fixed-wing opposition. They shot down 2 Shenyang F-7 (Mig-21).)
The F-14 carry both the AIM-7 and AIM-9, and yes it carryed the AIM-54 Phoenix, however it normaly only carried 2 Phoenix, 4 Sparrow, and 2 Sidwinder. If they carried all 6 Phoenix then the plane was to heavy to carried any other missile.
The F-14 had the AWG-9 Radar, range 100+ mi.
The F-15 had the APG-63 Radar, range 100+ mi.
The F-16 had the APG-66 Radar, range 40 mi.
The F-18 had the APG-65 Radar, range 100+ mi.
Our planes now have the AIM-130 missile. A much better missile plus they can now fire and forget. The missile has it own radar so it can guide itself to the target.

[civcop]

Curious

Ask any member of the Air Force, and they will tell you the F-14 Tomcat is the king of the skies.

So, any member of the US Air Force will admit that the fighter jet used by their Navy counterparts is the best in the air? I am forced to disagree. The differences between the Navy's F-14 Tomcat and the Air Forces's F-15 Eagle might not be major ones, but you won't find a member of one branch saying the warplane of the other branch is superior. Our forces work together well when it counts, but when the poop is far from the fan they sport a lively rivalry between branches of the milirary. No doubt the Marines claim their British-made jets to be the best. And the Army will claim their Apache helicopters are more lethal and useful to the armed forces. Sigh. For my money, nothing beats the A-10 Warthog! Tank killer extraordinaire!

At any rate, the F-14 is a Navy plane. The Air Force boasts of the F-15.

[GaryGuanine]

You are a very wise man, Civcop.

Gary

[jdd2007]

isnt it amazing what a wide range of knowledge we have here? impis, iroquis, artillery, tanks, jetfighters, "rise and fall of civs," some people just know them all like the back of their hand. just goes to show that civilization isnt just 'another game.' its much more than that

by the way, the f-22s being tested now are next generation fighters that will replace all fighters mentioned here

[Adm.Naismith]

Originally posted by jdd2007
by the way, the f-22s being tested now are next generation fighters that will replace all fighters mentioned here

Not necessary. The cost of modern fighters is so high that Air Force usually consider to use the last&best as its "diamond", for hardest missions, while the older model are for more common duty.

F16 Fighting Falcon (Viper) shifted its main role in USA from light fighter/best dogfighter around to fighter bomber (others countries use it as multyrole)
He works quite happily with the F15 Eagle, who will keep a role after F22 Raptor become operative, because the F22 will be too expensive and in small numbers to cover sky everywhere.

Look also at USA bombers situation: they use B2 as top stealth bomber, but have all the B1-B and still many B52!

[Lonestar]

Actually, I'm inclined to think that The Swedish Gripen is the Best European fighter out there right now....it certainly kicks Rafale buttocks...

I was also glad to see the Hungary is leasing 16 Gripens over F-16's, as good as the F-16 is, it is very, very, old. The F/A-18E Super Hornet and F-22 are both superior.

[PGM]

Originally posted by SoulAssassin
If the Romans had lasted and gotten to the Jet Age, you can be sure their Jets would be vastly different from the English jet fighters. But my idea of civ specific units for all types is obviously too high-level-thinking involed for Firaxis. I just have to make my own.

Arrggh. I think this would be a terrible idea. Speculative and above all, surrealistic.
Civs in the game are all "created" at the same time, so you'll be finding Americans in 2000 B.C. and Romans in 2000 A.D..
By your premise you'd get a Zulu warrior, a different Egyptian warrior, a different American warrior, a different Chinese warrior, a different Babylonian warrior, a different English warrior, a different German warrior, a different French warrior, a different Aztec warrior, a different Persian warrior, a different Japanese warrior, a different Roman warrior, a different Russian warrior, a different Greek warrior, a different Indian warrior, a different Iroquois warrior... How about a specific Iroquois jet ? There would be some serious imagination involved. Repeat for phalanx. Repeat for legion. Repeat for knight. Repeat for cannon. Repeat for tank. Repeat for frigate. Repeat for jet. Repeat for bomber. Repeat for destroyer. And so on, and so on. Find names for all of them. Find graphics for all of them.
At this time, we know of just a bunch of units and already we're arguing over names like Rider, their attributes, graphics, historical realism, etc., having this over hundreds of units (most of which, mass invented) would be nothing short of ridiculous.

[Shiva]

Re: Curious

Originally posted by civcop

For my money, nothing beats the A-10 Warthog! Tank killer extraordinaire!

Yeah the A-10 was well worth the money and still would be a viable platform if the airforce "Fighter Mafia" didnt want to get rid of it.

[Shiva]

Originally posted by SoulAssassin

Modern Aerial Combat rarely is about dog-fighting. Because a jet has a faster thrust to weight ratio, doesn't make it the better fighter. And economics DO play an important part in how good a fighter is. Ask any member of the Air Force, and they will tell you the F-14 Tomcat is the king of the skies.

In conjuction with the AWAC, its range for attacking air targets exceeds 250 miles. And all fighters cannot be equipped with the targeting systems and weapons systems that the F-14 has.

Sorry but the AIM-54 Phoenix was made for killing bombers at long range for fleet defence. They are large missles and fighters which can pull higher G's have a much better chance of avoiding them unlike other missles because the missle cannot turn as well as other missles because of its size and speed.

The Tomcat is king in its element, Fleet Defense, but there are better pure air superiority fighters. Maybe if the navy would have gone through with the planned upgrades instead of pushing the super Hornet it would be. Also the Super Hornet can take more weapon systems, it just cant take the Phoenix while it does take anti-ship missles and a number of ground attack weapons the Tomcat doesnt.

Also I would guess that now that you have declared dogfighting dead the Topgun and Redflag schools will be closing up shop soon since dogfighting doesnt matter

[Shiva]

Originally posted by DonJoel

If you get to have the f-15 (yep its a f-15) foreverer as americans that nation would be the only one you ever need to play and thats plain boring (imagine everyone wanting to be americans in multiplayer...)

But i think the people at firaxis are so smart that they realize this and that they will make some other unit replace the f-15 (stealth fighter perhaps?)

I think they'll let them have that edge forever in the game. Why? Look at the edge the other special units have over units of the same type. Its very small in most cases or they have the same stats and just doesnt need a resource the other needs.

If your facing someone with a special unit that has better stats I would use "Quanity has a quality all its own" as my watchword.

[joseph1944]

Originally posted by Shiva

The Tomcat is king in its element, Fleet Defense, but there are better pure air superiority fighters. Maybe if the navy would have gone through with the planned upgrades instead of pushing the super Hornet it would be. Also the Super Hornet can take more weapon systems, it just cant take the Phoenix while it does take anti-ship missles and a number of ground attack weapons the Tomcat doesnt.

The Navy did want the Upgrade but DOD review board said NO, and as we all know in this country the Cilvilian rules.

Also I would guess that now that you have declared dogfighting dead the Topgun and Redflag schools will be closing up shop soon since dogfighting doesnt matter

Not in my life time. I,m a member of the Air Force Ass. and my last issue had the score card on Red Flag.

[DonJoel]

I think they'll let them have that edge forever in the game. Why? Look at the edge the other special units have over units of the same type. Its very small in most cases or they have the same stats and just doesnt need a resource the other needs.

No, i dont think they will be so stupid that they would imbalance the game on purpose.

[Col Bigspear]

Sorry to Pi$$ on your chips but, what if the American CSU only has extra movement over the other jets!. Then it would be just as good as the others and would not need to become obsolete