!!!

[Dark Scorpion]

I don't understand why do you call the first space shuttle "The Apollo program"? The first one in space was Russia with "Vostok" program!!!

[Ralf]

Dont drill too far into real life details, or you might get stuck. Why not concentrate on gameplay-issues instead?

[Nikolai]

Actually, the Apollo program was USAs moon landing program. IMHO that was more important than just fly around the earth. But, Scorpion, you are maybe not agreeing? Well, speak out!

[red_jon]

But, Scorpion, don't you see? It's an American game, meaning they HAVE to make loads of US wonders. Like in CTP2 with the Empire State building as a wonder.

If an American thinks there are any communist wonders in the game, they probably won't buy it.

[Jarouik]

Originally posted by red_jon
But, Scorpion, don't you see? It's an American game, meaning they HAVE to make loads of US wonders. Like in CTP2 with the Empire State building as a wonder.

If an American thinks there are any communist wonders in the game, they probably won't buy it.

And what Soviet wonder would you want included in the game? The Apollo Program was by far the largest and most expensive space exploration program ever (perhaps the ISS will surpass it, though), and it did succeed in putting men on the moon... so it definitely should be included. I agree, though, that the important milestones of launching a first satellite (Sputnik) or sending a man into space (Yuri Gagarin in the Vostok Program) should be depicted in the game in some way as well.

[Scrooge]

Originally posted by Jarouik
And what Soviet wonder would you want included in the game?

The MIR program was definetly no small wonder for me. The 5-year plan. Settlement of Siberia. Building small wonder - Red Square - increase happiness, neuter war effects. These from the top of my head. I'm sure my Russkies friends will have more.

[SK138]

This almost goes back to Uffty's post about Spain being in as a civ instead of the USA. Scorpion, I agree with you about Russia a great space program when they put sputnik in space and later, humans.

Originally posted by red_jon
But, Scorpion, don't you see? It's an American game, meaning they HAVE to make loads of US wonders. Like in CTP2 with the Empire State building as a wonder.

If an American thinks there are any communist wonders in the game, they probably won't buy it.

Red_jon, I agree with you about the Empire State Building, even though it was a great achievment because of its size, it shouldn't have been a wonder, but the reason there isn't a Russian space wonder is because Firaxis wanted the moon landing in instead of first men in space, that is how it was in Civ2 and that is how it is in Civ3. If Firaxis put in both, you may have the problem of having the Apollo Program completed (men on the moon) before a Russian wonder of having first men in space.

Why does most of Europe hate the US? I dont understand it.

[DarkCloud]

Actually I think the reason the Apollo Program was chosen over the Russian Space Program is that the Apollo Program is a prequistice for sending a spacecraft to Alpha Centauri... correct?

And thus, the closest thing they thought to sending a manned spacecraft to another planet was to send one to the moon... thus... The Apollo Program wins out over the RSP.

[Dark Scorpion]

Originally posted by Nikolai
Actually, the Apollo program was USA moon landing program. IMHO that was more important than just fly around the earth. But, Scorpion, you are maybe not agreeing? Well, speak out!

Nikolai I agree that the flight no moon is important, but without the 40 min Gagarin was in space, there might of not being the moon mission.
Secondly I don't understand how flight to moon can affect the benefit from wonder in Civ 2 more than Vostok 2 shuttle? First astronauts that brought foto of Earth in space were Russian astronauts.


P.S. I am not against the Apolo program I just think that it does not fit in benefit given in Civ 2!

[Dark Scorpion]

Originally posted by Ralf
Dont drill too far into real life details, or you might get stuck. Why not concentrate on gameplay-issues instead?

Ralf I agree that gameplay is more important than history, but if Civ wish to be game which include historical events, it should be TRUE history!

[Dark Scorpion]

Originally posted by SK138
This almost goes back to Uffty's post about Spain being in as a civ instead of the USA. Scorpion, I agree with you about Russia a great space program when they put sputnik in space and later, humans.



Red_jon, I agree with you about the Empire State Building, even though it was a great achievment because of its size, it shouldn't have been a wonder, but the reason there isn't a Russian space wonder is because Firaxis wanted the moon landing in instead of first men in space, that is how it was in Civ2 and that is how it is in Civ3. If Firaxis put in both, you may have the problem of having the Apollo Program completed (men on the moon) before a Russian wonder of having first men in space.

Why does most of Europe hate the US? I dont understand it.

Sk138 if Firaxis would wish to put in both he would of put them both. You just could not build Apolo before you have build Vostok. Like in Ctp2 The Gaia project.

[Saint Marcus]

And what Soviet wonder would you want included in the game?

Sputnik, Gagarin, MIR, Kremlin, Red Square, Moscow Subway. And wasn't there a really amazing cathedral in St.Petersburg (or am I mistaken)?

[Saint Marcus]

Why does most of Europe hate the US? I dont understand it.

I'm trying to resist answering that one

[Gatekeeper]

Originally posted by Dark Scorpion
Ralf I agree that gameplay is more important than history, but if Civ wish to be game which include historical events, it should be TRUE history!

Dark Scorpion, et al.:

The Civilization series of games includes only certain aspects of history. These aspects mostly manifest themselves in the leaders of nations, how nations behave and in the Wonders.

If the Civilization series were to be true to history throughout, I would not buy the game. Why buy a historical simulator where the events are predetermined (ala scenarios, albeit this would be a "world history" scenario)? The game would be true to history, yes, but would be entirely predictable and boring as hell (mostly). Let scholastic companies deal with that kind of product.

The Wonders that Civ does include are true to history, as are leader/national characteristics (sans what the AI does with the parameters). What Wonders in Civ are not embedded in historical fact? Perhaps it would be interesting to have a Sputnik Wonder, though how this could benefit the player is a bit fuzzy (perhaps increase science by a one or two beakers per city, to reflect the leap in interest in science, math, physics, et al. following Sputnik). Then, of course, make it so Sputnik has to be built prior to the Apollo Program Wonder.

CYBERAmazon

[Imran Siddiqui]

Sputnik, Gagarin, MIR, Kremlin, Red Square, Moscow Subway. And wasn't there a really amazing cathedral in St.Petersburg (or am I mistaken)?

As wonders??! Only Sputnik is really deserving, and perhaps the Kremlin...