Hey Firaxis! SDI doesn't work!

[Fiil]

Originally posted by korn469

can you please explain to me how 100% effective SDI won't upset balance in the game? by building a single wonder the player then has the oppertunity to blast all of their opponents off the map, this encourages nuclear war...either by the player who builds it and is invulnerable to nuclear attacks, or by the other player because as soon as SDI gets built he is nuked anyways

Try replacing game with world and player with nation and then - I wonder why everyone thinks NMD is a bad idea!

Here is another one:

Originally posted by Pagan

Simon's philosophy was simple as it was accurate. Human beings are very, very smart, and they fix their problems before the problems get out of hand. When humans couldn't gather enough food from the ground, they learned to grow it. When humans ran out of wild animals to hunt, they domesticated them.

Like Simon, I am an optimist and believe that humans can solve any problems they are dedicated to solving. One question then becomes is the problem (threat) of enough consequence to consider building a defense against attack? The answer is yes. Is the system worth the cost? Yes, if it is ever needed and is employed successful. No, if the answer is otherwise. The value of this benefit is unknown and must therefore be considered on a personal basis.

Hmm, apparently the americans are so smart that they 'solve' the nuclear missile problem by building 'anti-nuclear missiles'. Luckily all other humans aren't as smart and will not 'solve' that problem, because if they were/did the $100 mil. would only bee an entrance fee and you would have to upgrade the weapons every year. Until of cause another american devised som bigger even more expensive weapon!

[Tingkai]

Doonesbury's take on SDI/NMD.

More cartoons can be found at

http://www.doonesbury.com/strip/dailydose/index20010822.htm

[ancient]

hmm maybe they should just lower the percentage..

[Orlando]

We are able to accept the science fiction of a space ship that can travel to Alpha Centauri with colonists that with enough work, has a 100% chance of reaching a planet light years away, in addition to the science fiction of Fusion Power and Solar Power Plants that generate enough power for huge metropolitan cites that completely eliminate pollution, but we are unable to accept the science fiction of a reliable, 100% defense against nuclear attack?

It's bad enough that civilizations plateau their scientific development with "Future Technologies" such that everyone dumps then their science revenue into cash or luxuries, but if we allow no science fiction, then we might as well edit out all technologies more advanced then, say, the Laser. Or, if it sounds more palatable, rename SDI to EMP (Electromagnetic Pulse) to make it more of an abstract science fiction concept and more acceptable somehow.

The real world should not completely dictate our potential games of Civilization, only guide them. After all, if our real world is a game of Civilzation, no one is going to win.

[Fiil]

Orlando

Actually in the real world I guess Norway won in 1945 when a norwegian was elected to general secretary of the United Nations.

Most of the posts in this thread are about gameplay though.
If a player gets SDI in all his cities, he is more likely to start a nuclear war. I really don't like this aspect of the game, at it seems I'm not alone. Starting a nuclear war should always be a risk, otherwise the weapon is way too powerful.

[Possibility]

Why not make an SDI unit.

It could be killed by conventional means (regular ground, air or cruise missles), but would stop (100% effective) any nuclear weapons used in the 2 or 3 square radius.

Or...

have it be like only 50% effective but have it be cumaltive with other SDI units in the same radius, so if a nuke was used and 2 SDI units were in range, the nuke would have a 75% (50+25)chance of being shot down, if 3 SDI units were in range, then it would have 87.5% (50+25+12.5)chance of being shot down, ect...

And if its a unit, you can move it around to protect your battle front, just like a real missle defense could be moved around.

Possibility

[Tingkai]

I've been thinking about whether SDI should be 100 per cent effective in Civ3. I think it should, not because of whether it will some day be technically possible in the real world, but rather because of the lesson that it teaches us.

Consider my approach to nukes and SDI, an approach that I assume is quite common. The minute someone develops nukes, I make an all out effort to get the Laser, or better yet, I develop the Laser before anyone creates the Manhattan Project.

If an AI civ has the ability to build the MP, or if it has been built, then I always avoid war. I will be nice and peaceful with anyone who has nukes.

However, once I build the SDI, everything changes. Then it is time to go to war. Why, because nukes are no longer a deterrent. It is time for war because I can fight a war without wiping myself out. And it will be a conventional war. Nukes create too much pollution to use on wide scale basis.

Now here is the jump to the real world. I would argue that the reason we have had peace between developed countries is that no one wants to risk a nuclear war. But if anyone develops SDI capability, then war becomes a likely outcome.

After all, most of us would agree that simply being the leader of a country does not make a person wise. Most of us would say that world’s leaders are all too human. History shows us that the urge to go to war is common. Government leaders are in this respect, not much different from Civ players.

Even if two countries develop SDI, a conventional war occurs, as it does in Civ. If one country develops SDI, war occurs as it does in Civ. And these wars will result in many people dying, real people, not some computer game piece.

I know it is politically incorrect to say the Americans would immediately go to war if they develop SDI. But imagine the Americans do create an effective SDI. How long would it take before another country steals the secrets of SDI? When that happens, then war becomes a likely outcome.

So, Civ shows us that the ABM treaty, a ban on SDI, is the best approach to world peace and that may be the most important lesson that any computer game has or ever will teach us.

[korn469]

posted by Tingkai
I've been thinking about whether SDI should be 100 per cent effective in Civ3. I think it should, not because of whether it will some day be technically possible in the real world, but rather because of the lesson that it teaches us.

and what would that lesson be? the lesson of bad gameplay? with improved nukes 100% effective SDI will kill the late game, especially if SDI is a miniwonder, the only way that could be worse if SDI was a normal wonder and only one player could have 100% effective SDI

i agree with you that the best way to handle nuclear weapons is through treaties like START, and SALT, SALT II, and the ABM treaty but making SDI 100% effective isn't going to make that point

i just wanna see good gameplay in civ3

[lupusmalus]

Originally posted by Tingkai

However, once I build the SDI, everything changes. Then it is time to go to war. Why, because nukes are no longer a deterrent. It is time for war because I can fight a war without wiping myself out. And it will be a conventional war. Nukes create too much pollution to use on wide scale basis.

Why should I slowly grind down an opponent city by city if i can cripple him or her with one stroke? And pollution isn't that big a problem, either, by the time I get nukes I have a whole army of engineers terraforming the whole goddamn planet, so I just send them in to clean up the mess. Much too easy, actually, hope they fixed that in III.

So, Civ shows us that the ABM treaty, a ban on SDI, is the best approach to world peace and that may be the most important lesson that any computer game has or ever will teach us.

Great, I'll get Dubya Civ III for Christmas!!!

But if we really need a computer game to teach us this, then that's a sad statement about human intelligence.

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by lupusmalus

Great, I'll get Dubya Civ III for Christmas!!!

Good idea. If he becomes a Civ addict it means he won't have time to screw up the world.

[korn469]

Tingkai,
never fear, if Dubya can no longer fulfill his duties of messing up the world then good old Cheney will take over

[Falconius]

[SIZE=1]
Perhaps once a city has built an SDI, then all missiles units in the area can run "interception" duties against nukes.

Acoording to the CivFanatics info page, SDI will no longer be a city improvement. It will be a Small Wonder. So one covers all your cities, unless they are programming in any "Achilles Heels."