Scenario Plans For Civ III?

[Timeline]

Okay, I tried to post a pic of the map, didn't work. Let me try one more time with it zipped. Here it goes:

[Timeline]

Here is the map itself. Now you can see how big it is. I will have the scenario (IE this map full of cities with national breakdown) By Sunday.

[Colon™]

Jew, Timeline, yeah I know it’s difficult to come up with alliances that are playable yet logical. The truth it is that few alliances and pacts are comparable to start with, except perhaps of basic free trade zones.
A couple of regions desire to construct something similar to the EU, the Andean Pact or ASEAN for instance, but they don’t come even near it.

Regarding the commonwealth and Canada, maybe you should create a neutrals civ, that encompasses Canada, Australia and other countries without a civ and that isn’t allowed to have war with anyone else. South Africa could join the African Union (I think they could use it) and Britain EU.
If any civ turns out to be too powerful you might chop of pieces and let it join the neutrals.

Or how about a “US allies civ”? IRL most of those countries are allies of US anyway and Japan wouldn’t be isolated anymore...

[Colon™]

Several additional notes:

Generally spoken relations between the European former colonisers and their subjects aren’t bad IRL, quite the contrary actually. The aforementioned British Commonwealth is one example, but France and its former colonies have even tighter relations particularly when it comes military links. It’s pretty much the same with Spain, Belgium etc

CIS would be a more logical adversary for the EU, since real life relations are more difficult. (I’m just considering Russia within CIS here, other CIS members in fact have better relations with the West than with Russia)

Colombia currently is the 2nd largest receiver of US aid in the world (after Israel), exactly because of the drugs war. You can argue about this but I wouldn’t say relations are bad because US supports most of the incumbent governments besides Chavez of Venezuela but they tolerate him because he rather behaves himself.

Regarding Congo-Kinshasa (there’s another Congo as well), the central state has collapsed, the economy has disintegrated and human rights are an unknown term, yes. But a rogue country? No.
It’s true the elder Kabila alienated foreign supporters and the West, but he never conducted foreign aggression and his son has restored relations somewhat

Besides, I’d like to remind you that such called rogue nations are based on a list the US makes and these aren’t necessarily enemies of other countries as well. North Korea has good relations with China for instance and the US trade embargo isn’t followed in EU and the rest of the Americas.

I think I’ll cease commenting for now...

[Timeline]

Okay, I’m back. I heard that the world map that ships with Civ III will be six times larger than the one for Civ 2!! If that’s true I will use that map for our scenario (I am not I map designer, heck I’m not even an editor but I am willing to try ) So, that means we can forget about this map and just wait until civ 3 comes out.

Don’t worry, I will put everything we discussed down on paper so we don’t lose it . Jsw, did you want to see the map I’ve been working on? If you do I can post it or E-mail it to you.

Colon, thnx for the post. I agree with everything you said, but I just wanted to ask you if what you said about Congo meant you thought they would be better represented in Africa.

“Besides, I’’d like to remind you that such called rogue nations are based on a list the US makes and these aren’’t necessarily enemies of other countries as well. North Korea has good relations with China for instance”

That’s why N. Korea is going to China

“the US trade embargo isn’’t followed in EU and the rest of the Americas.”

Well, I think a nations like Cuba (and maybe Iraq) can truly be called rouge nations. I agree with what jsw said a while back that in a cold war scenario, Cube could have part of the Soviet Union, but who do they have now? No one really. China and Russia no longer back them, I don’t believe they really have too many good relations with Latin American countries (I could be wrong). Maybe the EU doesn’t apply trade embargos like the US does, but it doesn’t mean they are friends lol.

Iraq is a member of the Arab League, but like jsw said, they attack other members at will. The EU and US have just in the past weak or two taken measures maintain their air superiority over Iraq, effectively crippling Iraq’s ability to attack Israel and other nations.

Some nice thoughts though Colon. Just need to wait for Civ III then work like mad!!

[Timeline]

Oh and jsw, when you come back, I would still like to see any info you can give about the Commonwealth. Maybe a writeup or something. Some kind of introduction.

Thanks!!

[HisMajestyBOB]

You're gonna have competition

I've been planning a 21st Century scen of my own, but it'll be way different from yours, and I won't say anything else.

[Vitmore The Great]

Originally posted by Timeline

I’m not too worried about the position East Europe will be in (it being a hard position). Because if they are allied (or have defense pact) with the West, and the West is allied with the U.S., then if China, Russia attacks them it’s world war 3 . In other words, they would be in a hard position if world war 3 breaks out, but they have as much deterrent as anyone els (except they won’t have nukes). This is all realistic IMO, and the more I talk about it the more I like it.

“About eastern europe firs, that would be a couple of countires Poland, Czech, Slovakia, Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria, + Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, this is the area I am thinking of, it depends on the map space (if two cities possible).. you can have 1/2 of former Yugoslavia too.”

Poland, Czech, Slovakia, Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria - out of these will most likely use: Warsaw, Budapest, Bucharest. Like you said, depends on size, but in the Civ2 scenario I am working from, these are all that will fit. Maybe Civ 3 world map will be bigger .

Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia - shouldn’t these go to the C.I.S.? Really, the only city we will use in these will be Murmansk.

Remember that Poland, Hungary and the Czech Republic are members of NATO as of 1999. The Baltic States (Lithuania, Estonia and Latvia), Slovakia, and Romania are thought to be next in line. EU and NATO expansion are supposed to go hand in hand to preserve maximum stability in Europe.

And about Huntington, I have Clash of Civilizations as well as a book edited by Robert Pastor called "A Century's Journey" which says there are seven great powers that shape the world: Germany, France, Britain, USA, Russia, China, and Japan. I have other political science/history books. Try reading "The Rise and Fall of the Great Powers" by Paul Kennedy. It's a little outdated since it was written in 1988, but it would give good ideas for civs in modern scenarios and their relative strengths and weaknesses. One factor in making a good modern scenario based on today is who makes up what civ, but it's even more difficult to implement each civs strengths and weaknesses (ie. military, industrial capacity, financial strength, culture, technology, etc.) accurately. It would be nice for example, in Civ III for example for China having a massive population and the US, without the large pop to still be superior technologically, therefore more powerful. I've always noticed China in scenarios having less pop than most and being held behind by that fact.

Vitmore The Great

[Timeline]

Well, if your scenario will be “way different” than mine, then I doubt we will be in competition.

I realize you were just joking though.

[Timeline]

[quote] Remember that Poland, Hungary and the Czech Republic are members of NATO as of 1999. The Baltic States (Lithuania, Estonia and Latvia), Slovakia, and Romania are thought to be next in line. EU and NATO expansion are supposed to go hand in hand to preserve maximum stability in Europe. [quote]

Thanks for the info. Would you be suggesting here (by any chance) that perhaps Eastern Europe is not culturally distinctive enough, or politically independent enough, to be it’s own civ in a scenario of this type? Perhaps they would be better represented by the EU?

One factor in making a good modern scenario based on today is who makes up what civ, but it's even more difficult to implement each civs strengths and weaknesses (ie. military, industrial capacity, financial strength, culture, technology, etc.) accurately. It would be nice for example, in Civ III for example for China having a massive population and the US, without the large pop to still be superior technologically, therefore more powerful. I've always noticed China in scenarios having less pop than most and being held behind by that fact.

And that is exactly the stuff I want to change! I have always noticed that kind of stuff also, and it always bugged me. There are many other little quirks that always annoyed me too that were inherent in the Civ 2 program (mainly AI, and civ limit). These are expanded features I look forward to exploiting in Civ III.

In many ways, I have a very difficult job ahead of me. I am very happy that there are people like you, Colon, jsw, and other Apolytoners who are willing to help and give me their “two cents”. After all, if everyone in the world or even in the US gave me 2 cents I would be a very rich man .

Are there any other references you can give me too help me ascertain various countries’ military strength, industrial capacity, etc? I will be sure to read those books you suggested, and thank you very much for your post.

Oh, btw, you are from Canada, so let me ask you: who do you think Canada would best fit in with: (US / make an Independent Nations civ / British Commonwealth / Other) - Thanks!

[Colon™]

Timeline, which scens have you made before? It has been some time ago since I’ve played civ2 so excuse me for not knowing.

Regarding Congo, well if you define a rogue country as a country that’s has bad diplomatic relations with everyone (or even US) you can’t say it is a rogue country, so I’d put in the African civ yes. (shame you can’t have a couple dozens of civs more, then you could simulate the warring parties in the country )

Good that you include N.Korea with China, I mentioned it because you included the country in the rogue civ in one of your previous posts.

Cuba isn’t particularly popular in most of world either, but neither are they isolated as NK is, they enjoy trade with Canada, Europe and Latin America and they derive a lot of income from tourism.
But as I’ve said previously, a lot of civs include countries that are or ahve been in conflict with each other so I don’t believe adding Cuba to Central America and the Caribbean Basin would particularly worrysome.

You can apply the same argument when it comes Iraq.

[Vitmore The Great]

Originally posted by Timeline


Are there any other references you can give me too help me ascertain various countries’ military strength, industrial capacity, etc? I will be sure to read those books you suggested, and thank you very much for your post.

Oh, btw, you are from Canada, so let me ask you: who do you think Canada would best fit in with: (US / make an Independent Nations civ / British Commonwealth / Other) - Thanks!

Well, as to references...the CIA World Factbook is a good place to get relative stats on countries of the world http://www.odci.gov/cia/publications...ook/index.html

I also read lots history books, but I doubt those would assist to much with a modern scenario beyond storyline atmosphere.


About Canada? I'm playing this one EXTREMLY accurate modern scenario that is somewhat storyline driven, and it has Canada in the "Allied" countries, which comprises of all the western oriented nations of the world. The author put severe limitations on the this large civ to make sure it doesn't take unrealistic advantages of it size. Since I'm splurging this person's idea, I should mention his name and the name of the scenario, and even where to get it.
"Crises fo the New World Order" - Andrew P. Livings
I got it at civfanatics.com

If Canada is not in an "Allied" civ, it might as well be part of the US. It pains me to say it, but it would be convienient for circumstances of the scenario. Do not make Canada a part of a "Neutral" civ because it is not neutral.

It is not worth having a Commonwealth civ. Perhaps in a pre-WWII scenario, but not in the globalist/ regional economic bloc driven post-Cold War World. For the most part, the Commonwealth is a symbolic organization connecting the old dominions and former colonies of Great Britain. Regional groupings such as NAFTA, NATO and the EU are more top priority than the Commonwealth when poush comes to shove.

About Europe, there are two organizations you can use to represent it. You can either use the European Union, which is currently only economic, or NATO (minus North America) which is of course military. I would EU would be better, becaue though Europe and North America are allied, they are also global economic competitors and have different political paths and agendas. Since the EU is going to expand into eastern Europe in the next five years, I would just join it with the EU. And about eastern and western differences, that notion is kinda from the Cold War. Poland is mostly Catholic, not Eastern Orthodox, and historically aligned with the west (before the three Polish Partitions of 1772, 1793 and 1795 and the Inter-War Period). Hungary I believe is also Catholic and was a prominent Western state since the Middle Ages and as part of the Habsburg Dual Monarchy. The Czech Republic (Prague) was a Western cultural centre within the Habsburg Empire.



Vitmore

[Grim Legacy]

Originally posted by lord of the mark



sleague.apolyton.nethttp://sleague.apolyton.net

they can also be reached from the Apolyton main page.

Im pretty sure they only do and discuss civ2 scenarios. I dont think they even do CTP or SMAC scenarios let alone other games (AOE, TOAW etc) There are other resources for those games.

LOTM

SLeague ownz!!

I bet there will be a distinct revival with the coming of Civ3!

[Timeline]

Timeline, which scens have you made before? It has been some time ago since I’’ve played civ2 so excuse me for not knowing.

Well, this will be my first scenario, but I have no worries about it as I have made a few private scenarios for myself and have edited existing ones. I kinda discovered the whole Civilization magic thing very late compared to the rest of you (it’s been about 4 years now). Civ2:MPG was my first civ game, and that came with a ton of scenarios then when I had played most of them I found Apolyton via search engine, and after that I had to change my definition of a ton . Point is, I never had a need to make scenarios for Civ2 because they already had every one Icould have dreamed of. But now, with Civ3 coming out, I will be able to learn along with everyone els and get a little jump on things .

Colon, you are a scenario designer right? How long does the average scenario take to make for Civ 2?

Regarding Congo, well if you define a rogue country as a country that’’s has bad diplomatic relations with everyone (or even US) you can’’t say it is a rogue country, so I’’d put in the African civ yes. (shame you can’’t have a couple dozens of civs more, then you could simulate the warring parties in the country)

Maybe some well placed barbarians in the area could do the trick?

Good that you include N.Korea with China, I mentioned it because you included the country in the rogue civ in one of your previous posts.

Oh

Cuba isn’’t particularly popular in most of world either, but neither are they isolated as NK is, they enjoy trade with Canada, Europe and Latin America and they derive a lot of income from tourism.

Who would want to tour Cuba? “On your right you can see Castro’s Palace built in (insert date here) and on your left filling the countryside are the beautiful huts and tents where everyone els lives.” “Mommy, mommy!! Look at all the dolphins in the water!” “No honey, those are people trying to swim away.”

BTW, Just having a little fun, don’t take it seriously.

But as I’’ve said previously, a lot of civs include countries that are or ahve been in conflict with each other so I don’’t believe adding Cuba to Central America and the Caribbean Basin would particularly worrysome. You can apply the same argument when it comes Iraq.

Are you trying to dissolve the rouge nations civ. I guess that’s not a bad idea. So we have so far:

1. EU (+Turkey (+ Baltics, Austria, Hungry, Czech Republic, Romania, Poland, Bulgaria, ?Yugoslavia?, other eastern europe states)

2. US, Canada + Israel

3. China (+Vietnam, Laos, ?Mongolia?) - should Mongolia go with China?

4. CIS

5. India (+Nepal, Sri Lanka)

6. African Union (Sub-sahara Africa)

7. MercoSur (Brazil, Argentina, Uruguay, Paraguay, Chile)

8. Andean Pact (Peru, Colombia, Ecuador, Venezuela, Bolivia and the Guayanas)

9. Central America and Carribean Basin (Mexico, (+Cuba)

10. Arab League (Morroco, Algeria, Tunisia, Libya, Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Lebanon, and the Gulf States (+Iraq)

11. Arab League (Morroco, Algeria, Tunisia, Libya, Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Lebanon, and the Gulf States)

12. APEC (from Indonesia to S. Korea, including Singapore (+ NZ, Australia, Papua New Guinea)

13. Japan

14. Independent Islamic States (Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iran, Bangladesh)


Any Suggestions? I am thinking we don’t need 16, less is ok. But if we were to use the other two, what would they be?

the CIA World Factbook is a good place to get relative stats

Yep, I have that site bookmarked . Thanks for the Info Vitmore, do like the list above better?

[Tiberius]

Just my 2 cents about Eastern Europe in your scenario:

From my point of view, you have absolutely no reason to include an Eastern European civ in the scenario!

I have 2 reasons to say this:
1. Like Vitmore the Great said it very well, the EU is going to expand into eastern Europe in the very near future; it's almost sure that in the next 5 years Poland, the Czech Republic, Hungary, Slovenia, maybe even the Baltic States and Slovakia will join the European Union, with Romania, Bulgaria and probably Croatia (maybe even Yugoslavia!) following them in the next, let's say, 10 to 20 years.
2. Every single nation from this region has better relations with the EU that with the other nations from here! Because of historically bad relations between these nations, you hardly can put in the same civ Hungary and Romania, or Romania and Bulgaria and so on.

Next: where belong these civs? Economically and politically, thinking in near future (20 years), certainly to the EU (all of them). If you want a religious border, then put Hungary, Poland, Czechia, Slovenia, Croatia and the Baltic states in the EU while Bulgaria, Romania and Yugoslavia in the Russian Federation (slavs/orthodox nations). If you make a religious border, take care where you put Greece: they are orthodox!

Hope this helps. I'm looking forward for your scenario!