Scenario Plans For Civ III?

[jsw363]

Modern World (16 civs)

OneFootInTheGrave-

I have a couple of points about your post.

1. EU (or alternately Eastern and Western Europe)
Sounds good except for the Israel/ Turkey thing. Turkey is a member of NATO, so if you are doing political divisions then they should be with Western Europe. Israel gets most of its aid, technological support etc. from the US. I don't think the Europeans are as supportive of the Israeli agenda. Eastern Europe is an interesting choice since they would be in a hard position between EU and Russia. Not sure if this would work.

"2. US + Canada
3. China
4. Russian Federation
5. India
6. Sub-saharan Africa"
Do you include South Africa here? It might be interesting instead to create a civ made up of the Commonwealth Members (NZ, Australia, South Africa, Canada)

7. Latin America
"8.Islamic Nations (pakistan/ Iraq could go tho the rogue nation club)" I think that you can't include all Islamic nations (that would mean including Indonesia and Maylasia at least) We had discussed previously using the Arab League as a basis for this civ.

"9.Japan + Malaysian subcontinent & indonesia +Taiwan"
Does S. Korea fall here? Taiwan is ethnically and culturally Chinese, but within the US sphere of influence. Except for a brief period as the Japanese colony of Formosa, I don't really know that you should place Taiwan here in an expanded scenario. Will the other Asian tigers be here as well? If this is an economic division that might make more sense.

"11.rogue civ (located at Afganistan, Cuba, Iraq, Kashmir,Tibet, Chechenia, Yugoslavia, Columbia, Kongo) which are present places of war and would give all major civs some trouble to sort out and occupy." Are you putting Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Kashmir, Tibet and Chechnya all together as one big rogue? That's a HUGE area. (Much bigger than India, which is an actualy civ) I wouldn't include Chechnya, Kasmir or Tibet as rogue nations. If anything they are points of conflict between civs (Russia & Arab League, India and Arab League) or provinces in revolt. The Chinese have a pretty good handle on Tibet right now and I don't think that the Dalai Lama is in the same catergory as Saddam Hussein, and Kim Il Jong as far as rogue leaders go.

I think a better list for a 16 civ scenario would be:
1. EU +Turkey
2. Eastern Europe
3. US
4. China
5. Russian Federation
6. India
7. Sub-Saharan Africa (minus South Africa)
8. British Commonwealth (NZ, Australia, Canada, South Africa)
9. MercoSur (Brazil, Argentina, Uruguay, Paraguay, Chile and Bolivia)
10. Andean Pact and rest of South America
11. Central America and Carribean Basin
12. Arab League
13. Asian Tigers (from Indonesia to S. Korea)
14. Japan
15. Pakistan, Afghanistan & Iran
16. Rogue Nations

I believe that this would be much more balanced and create more interesting situations along civ fault lines. Opinions?

[Mahdimael]

Doh, I was thinking Seminole...my apologies...the brain got mixed up

--(Note: Creole are not a tribe. Briefly, they are people
--descended from French/Spanish blood who lived in Louisiana
--area or alternately mestizos of mixed ancestry)

[Mahdimael]

How bizarre...I've never played Civ2:MPG... I only own vanilla old Civ2

Originally posted by Timeline
“Also, I would love to see a "scenarios" folder where we can put our different scenario folders (or mods). A lot of the mods for civ2 had us copying over the units and rules...something where civ would detect which files are in the scenario directory and use those over the standard ones would be very very nice ”

I have ME (Civ2 Multiplayer Gold Edition) and the way it operates scenarios is *exactly* the way you described. And yes, it is very very nice

[OneFootInTheGrave]

16 civs

About eastern europe firs, that would be a couple of countires Poland, Czech, Slovakia, Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria, + Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, this is the area I am thinking of, it depends on the map space (if two cities possible).. you can have 1/2 of former Yugoslavia too.

As for the EU, it will eventually swallow present eastern europe. It is jut a metter of time, in 50 yrs for certain, but very likely within 10 years most of it. Than going towards Turkey and Israel. Turkey has already applied to become a member, but it has been suspended because of bad human righhts records, and some othe issues. Israel is supported politically by US, but culturally i think it has very strong ites wioth Europe, and if they are going ot go into an economical/ political alliance one day, I can bet it will be Europe. (Israeli sports clubs play in european championships already, and it has support politically from EU as well. UK gave them the land in the first place, etc... ) I dont think that israel will ever become 52nd US state . And it is closer/easier to defend as a part of EU. ...

i have to go now, I will comment on the rest later... but some good ideas, i like the britis commonwaealth civ

[Lonestar]

Lemme throw ,my hat into the ring....

Well, I think y'all have some good I deas here, but personally I'm a big big fan of Alternate History, and think some alternate History Scenarios should be included.

The Great war
Alternate WWI

Central Powers:
USA
Germany/Austria
Turkey

Allies:
Confederate States of America
Russia
Britain/Canada
France

So, a lot of the fighting would be in North America. If a Map of Europe and NA could be worked out. Note, there will be Barbarians in the CSA (marxist Negroes)
(yes, I got this from Harry Turtledove's Books)



The Russian Revolution

Reds:
Boleshiviks
German Empire ( who supported Lenin)

Whites:
Tsar's forces
Americans
Japanese
French
British

Mostly this is shelf explanatory, It's the Reds v. the Whites (Including interceding Allies)


WW3

1. EU (Including Australia, and South Africa)
2. North America ( including S.K., Taiwan, Japan, Jerusalem)
3. CIS (including Serbia, or the city of Belgrade)
4. China (Ponyang included)
5. Islamic nations (Including Chechnya, and Sarejevo)
6. India
7. The OAS (South America)

War would break out after the EU attacks Serbian bases. India would begin a border war with the Islamic Nations, who are also opposed to the CIS. N.A, is with the EU, of course. The Great neutral state would be the OAS.

Just some thoughts.

[Eugene]

Originally posted by Timeline

Commonwealth of Independent States: former USSR - President Boris Yeltsin
Timeline

Yeltsin is a past. The leader od the Russia must be Vladimir Putin.

[Timeline]

Wow, so so many good ideas here. Sorry I have not been responding to many posts here, but I have been using most of my free time checking out all the new features in Civ 3 at the website and for a while I was locked out of the forum . But that’s behind me now.

For the most part a agree with everything you have said jsw and I pretty much have the same thoughts.

“Eastern Europe is an interesting choice since they would be in a hard position between EU and Russia. Not sure if this would work.”

This may be a hard thing to balance out and hard from a game design point of view. Question: Western Europe is the EU? And will W. Europe be allied with eastern (I am sure it will, but I just need to ask). I like the idea but how will we be able to simulate the EU’s growth into E. Europe? Making the West have high culture would work but would have it’s disadvantages. I won’t go into detail about this because it is far to early to work out such details - but I just want you to know that E. Europe may forever be stuck apart from the West, except for the alliance they have. Or maybe we can have them start out with a mutual defense pact and a good relationship and they can work towards alliance.

I’m not too worried about the position East Europe will be in (it being a hard position). Because if they are allied (or have defense pact) with the West, and the West is allied with the U.S., then if China, Russia attacks them it’s world war 3 . In other words, they would be in a hard position if world war 3 breaks out, but they have as much deterrent as anyone els (except they won’t have nukes). This is all realistic IMO, and the more I talk about it the more I like it.

“About eastern europe firs, that would be a couple of countires Poland, Czech, Slovakia, Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria, + Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, this is the area I am thinking of, it depends on the map space (if two cities possible).. you can have 1/2 of former Yugoslavia too.”

Poland, Czech, Slovakia, Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria - out of these will most likely use: Warsaw, Budapest, Bucharest. Like you said, depends on size, but in the Civ2 scenario I am working from, these are all that will fit. Maybe Civ 3 world map will be bigger .

Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia - shouldn’t these go to the C.I.S.? Really, the only city we will use in these will be Murmansk.

“Do you include South Africa here? It might be interesting instead to create a civ made up of the Commonwealth Members (NZ, Australia, South Africa, Canada)”

“I like the britis commonwaealth civ.” -one foot in the grave

I like the idea too. But how can you have the Commonwealth without Britain?

“9.Japan + Malaysian subcontinent & indonesia +Taiwan" Does S. Korea fall here? Taiwan is ethnically and culturally Chinese, but within the US sphere of influence. Except for a brief period as the Japanese colony of Formosa, I don't really know that you should place Taiwan here in an expanded scenario. Will the other Asian tigers be here as well? If this is an economic division that might make more sense.”

An economic division, such as APEC? If so, we could throw Japan into this one.

“I wouldn't include Chechnya ... as [a] rogue nation. If anything [it is a] point of conflict between civs or provinces in revolt.”

In Civ2 the barbarians were used to symbolize Cities that had revolted. So, I don’t think it would be too far off to make Chechnya a rouge faction.

“Rogue civ ... would give all major civs some trouble to sort out and occupy.” - one foot in the grave


I think this is a cool idea. Opinion on this comment jsw363?

“Israel is supported politically by US, but culturally i think it has very strong ites wioth Europe, and if they are going ot go into an economical/ political alliance one day, I can bet it will be Europe. (Israeli sports clubs play in european championships already, and it has support politically from EU as well. UK gave them the land in the first place, etc... ) I dont think that israel will ever become 52nd US state . And it is closer/easier to defend as a part of EU...” - one foot in the grave

Nice thoughts, it goes to W. Europe then? I agree Turkey should go to the E.U.


Summery:
1. EU +Turkey

2. Eastern Europe

3. US

4. China - Would this include Vietnam, and Laos?

5. Russian Federation - This would be the former U.S.S.R. and called the C.I.S.

6. India

7. Sub-Saharan Africa (minus South Africa)
8. British Commonwealth (NZ, Australia, Canada, South Africa) - The Commonwealth without Britian? Hmmmm.......

9. MercoSur (Brazil, Argentina, Uruguay, Paraguay, Chile and Bolivia) - I am not familiar with MercoSur, I guess I have some research to do.

10. Andean Pact and rest of South America

11. Central America and Carribean Basin - Mexico and who els? I would like Puerto Rico in with U.S.

12. Arab League - including Iran

13. Asian Tigers (from Indonesia to S. Korea) - A.P.E.C.?

14. Japan - Put in with # 13?

15. Pakistan, Afghanistan & Iran

16. Rogue Nations


I look forward to your return One Foot In The Grave.

Let the discussion comence!

[Timeline]

"Yeltsin is a past. The leader od the Russia must be Vladimir Putin. "

Well, this scenario is supposed to be for the year 1995, at that time Putin was working with Russian Intelligence to plan ways to undermine the US and throw it into chaos . . .






5 years of maneuvering and preparation finally paid off in 2000 when Bush was elected president.

[Timeline]

Well, I have just spent the last two hours working on scenario design. I am going to bed now but I'll be back tommorow evening to check for any new posts.

I am basically copying from the old scenario but adding in all our changes, and also adding in some cities. I think the map I have here for Civ 2 is big enough for our scenario. I have 4 cities just in Pakistan!! Soon it should be good enough to show a few of you and see if you have any suggestions. Not much more we can do till Civ 3 comes out (which won't be long).

Well see you all tommorow.

[jsw363]

Modern World - 16 Civs

I am going to use Timeline's version of this as a basis for discussion since I agree with his the most. I have no idea how big this map is, but it sounds huge since Pakistan will have four cities. Should be interesting...

1. EU +Turkey
"Making the EU have high culture would work but would have it’s disadvantages." -Timeline
I like this idea, since Eastern Europe is still recovering from Soviet occupation and thus has "lost much of it's culture." We could even include a Russian national or two in these cities to represent thier influence under the Soviet regime.

2. Eastern Europe

3. US
I'd like to include Israel here and not in the EU for the following reasons.
1. Since their failure in Suez (1956), the European powers have ceded the Middle East to the US as a "sphere of influence".
2. The US consistantly uses thier influece (and veto) on the Security Council of the UN (any MANY other organizations) to stop any resolutions critical of Israeli behavior. The European powers have never vetoed any such resolution, though do occasionally abstain. Just this March the US alone vetoed sending in UN observers to Israel, because it was scared of what the observers would report about Isreali behavior.

http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/UN/usvetoes.html

3. It is not the EU, but the US that provides Israel with BILLIONS of dollars in aid annually. If the EU is really so Pro-Israel they should put their money where their mouth is.
4. The US also supports the Isreali army with technology, training and logistical support. I haven't found evidence of such a deep connection with any of the European powers.

4. China - Would this include Vietnam, and Laos?
Vietnam is still communist as is Laos, so I think that they more closely fit with China than APEC. (Don't know what to do about Burma/Myanmar since they are under a military dictatorship)

5. Russian Federation - This would be the former U.S.S.R. and called the C.I.S.
"Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia - shouldn’t these go to the C.I.S.? Really, the only city we will use in these will be Murmansk. "
Isn't Murmansk in Russia? Shouldn't we use Riga or Vilnius? And I think that they should be in E. Europe since they declared independence.
As for Chechnya, Grozni could be a city heavily influenced by Islamic culture that would likely break off. A barabarian civ wouldn't be out of the question either, as long as the citizens were of the Islamic civ.

6. India

7. Sub-Saharan Africa (minus South Africa)
8. British Commonwealth (NZ, Australia, Canada, South Africa) - "The Commonwealth without Britian? Hmmmm......." - Timeline
Perhaps it would be better to exclude Britain from the EU and put them with the rest of the commonwealth. Any opinions on this. Britain is definitely less integrated than many of the countries and this would help the commonwealth be more powerful. (Also I guess this means that Ireland has to be part of the EU.)(And, this designation has problems, I jsut realized since the commonwealth has about 54 countries among them Pakistan, India, Bermuda and Guyana.)

9. MercoSur (Brazil, Argentina, Uruguay, Paraguay, Chile and Bolivia)
This is an tariff union that includes the most developed countries in S. America. (Bolivia and Chile are only associate members)

10. Andean Pact and rest of South America

11. Central America and Carribean Basin - "Mexico and who else? I would like Puerto Rico in with U.S. " - Timeline
I don't know how the map size plays out, but perhaps San Jose, Managua, San Salvador and Guatemala City end up in there?

12. Arab League - including Iran

13. Asian Tigers- Thailand, Indonesia, Maylasia, S. Korea, Taiwan, Phillipines, Borneo, Cambodia, etc.
It's not really APEC since Mexico, Russia and the US are some of the additional members to the countries we are talking about.

14. Japan - Put in with # 13?
I think that they're strong enough to stand on their own in a 16 civ scenario.

15. Pakistan, Afghanistan & Iran

16. Rogue Nations

It will be really interesting to figure out the ethnic makeups of all these civs. It could be really important in how easily new cities assimilate.

[Timeline]

“I'd like to include Israel here and not in the EU for the following reasons.”

Ok, I agree.

4. China - Would this include Vietnam, and Laos?
“Vietnam is still communist as is Laos, so I think that they more closely fit with China than APEC. (Don't know what to do about Burma/Myanmar since they are under a military dictatorship)”

Okay, Vietnam and Laos are in china.

What do we do with Bangladesh and Nepal?

5. Russian Federation - This would be the former U.S.S.R. and called the C.I.S.

“Isn't Murmansk in Russia?”

Yes, you are right of course. I got a little confused last night on where Estonia is (I thought it was farther north), I have downloaded a few maps and have it figured out.

“Shouldn't we use Riga or Vilnius?”

Yep, we will use both.

“And I think that they should be in E. Europe since they declared independence.”

Yeah, I checked my reference, looks like there are only 12 C.I.S. members today, and Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania aren’t among. I must say, you know your stuff, you know far more than I do.

Okay, they are in with East Europe.

“As for Chechnya, Grozni could be a city heavily influenced by Islamic culture that would likely break off. A barabarian civ wouldn't be out of the question either, as long as the citizens were of the Islamic civ.”

Neat thoughts. Maybe we could program a random chance for a barbarian uprising in that area with a message “Chechnya Revolts! Rebels Take up Arms Near Grozni.” Maybe give it a random chance based on City happiness. Well, like I said before, it’s too early to start planning in THAT detail.

6. India

7. Sub-Saharan Africa (minus South Africa)

8. British Commonwealth (NZ, Australia, Canada, South Africa) - "The Commonwealth without Britian? Hmmmm......." - Timeline

“Perhaps it would be better to exclude Britain from the EU and put them with the rest of the commonwealth.

I think if we are going to use the Commonwealth as a civ then Britain must be in it . And I do like the idea, -alot-.

“Any opinions on this.”

I too would like to hear other people’s opinions

“Britain is definitely less integrated than many of the countries and this would help the commonwealth be more powerful.”

I agree with you here.

“(Also I guess this means that Ireland has to be part of the EU.)”

Does Ireland have a closer relationship with the EU than the UK? I know they have strong religious differences, is there anything els that divides them? (Again a subject I don’t know too much about.)

Is there anyway we can sneak Ireland in there? Perhaps by making the City on the island Belfast, instead of Dublin, effectively leaving Ireland out while not allowing the Island to go to waste.

“(And, this designation has problems, I jsut realized since the commonwealth has about 54 countries among them Pakistan, India, Bermuda and Guyana.)”

Ouch! Well we can still give them their own Civ and have them start out with a close affiliation with the Commonwealth.

Perhaps we could limit the commonwealth it to only a few:

Great Britain
Australia
New Zealand
Canada
South Africa (and Swaziland)
Falkland Islands
Papau New Guinea
Singapore



Really, we did the same thing with the Arab League and Iraq, so I don’t see why we can’t do it here too.

“9. MercoSur (Brazil, Argentina, Uruguay, Paraguay, Chile and Bolivia)
This is an tariff union that includes the most developed countries in S. America. (Bolivia and Chile are only associate members)”

Are there any good Pacts which we could unite Africa under?

“10. Andean Pact and rest of South America”

Do you really think it is good to break up South America so much? The more we break them up, the weaker they will be . . . . and perhaps the less fun it will be play them.

It is however much more fun to play against many civs (at least for me) and it is realistic to break them up as much as possible I suppose. I guess the question is who do we want the playable civs to be here? Open to debate.

“11. Central America and Carribean Basin - "Mexico and who else? I would like Puerto Rico in with U.S. " - Timeline
I don't know how the map size plays out, but perhaps San Jose, Managua, San Salvador and Guatemala City end up in there?”

Yes, All of them can fit but it would be tight. Perhaps it would be best if we dropped San Jose, and Guatemala /or/ San Salvador.

12. Arab League - including Iran

13. Asian Tigers- Thailand, Indonesia, Maylasia, S. Korea, Taiwan, Phillipines, Borneo, Cambodia, etc.

It's not really APEC since Mexico, Russia and the US are some of the additional members to the countries we are talking about.”

Same thing, again, with what we did with the Arab League (no Iraq) and the Commonwealth of Nations (no India) . It is impossible to be perfect, especially with a game like Civ. Civ 3 will help get closer by giving us 16 civs, but we will never be able to get everything exactly right. I think most people will understand this, and what we are planning here is better than anything I have ever seen for Civ 2 (even our old 8 nation list was far superior to anything currently available.)

Don’t get me wrong, I don’t want to do anything unnecessarily unrealistic, but how els we gonna tie in these nations? ‘Asian Tigers’ isn’t really a name of a Civ, APEC could be passed as a Civ.

Please fill me in.

14. Japan - Put in with # 13?
I think that they're strong enough to stand on their own in a 16 civ scenario.

Hmm, Japan strong enough to stand on their own? What is it that makes you say that? Now I admit, they have a killer economy, but then again they rely almost entirely on the US as a consumer market. They are forbidden to maintain a military except for self defense. They are heavily dependent on imported raw materials and fuels, which is mostly from the US, also almost 50% of their food is imported. The crowding of habitable land area and the aging of the population remain major problems. All in all, my opinion is Japan would be better off being put in with the US or Asain nations, but NOT by itself (LOL the idea just strikes me as ridicules, especially with only 16 Civs. There are many others I would give their own civ before JAPAN).

Well, this is my opinion, but I am open to reason . . . .

[jsw363]

OK... a new version...

1. EU +Turkey

2. Eastern Europe + Baltics

3. US + Israel

4. China (+Vietnam, Laos)
(Where does Mongolia go? It's a republic. It's not APEC material and not a rogue.)

5. CIS

6. India (+Nepal, Sri Lanka)
Nepal has historical, geographical, cultural, religious (Hindu) and linguistic links to India.

7. Sub-Saharan Africa (minus South Africa)
I have no idea what org. there is that covers this. Not my area. Org. of African Unity has ALL African members, and so is too big, so I have no ideas....

8. British Commonwealth (Britain, NZ, Australia, Canada, South Africa, Papua New Guinea)
Sounds good to me. Don't even know if the village on the Falklands will be big enough to register. There's mostly just sheep there....
On Ireland. You tell me if there's enough room for two cities there. I think it's kind of **** to do Belfast instead of Dublin. Ireland is a totally independent country and with the way nationalism is running in that country nowdays I think that they'd prefer the EU to Britain, but personally I don't care.

9. MercoSur (Brazil, Argentina, Uruguay, Paraguay, Chile)

10. Andean Pact (Peru, Colombia, Ecuador, Venezuela, Bolivia and the Guayanas)
It was sort of my hope that by splitting them up that Brazil and the rest would engulf the other non-Mercosur countries. I don't know what they're relative strengths will be.

11. Central America and Carribean Basin

12. Arab League (Morroco, Algeria, Tunisia, Libya, Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Lebanon, and the Gulf States)

13. APEC (from Indonesia to S. Korea, including Singapore)
I think that Singapore is much more like India in this case. A colony who has gained independence and is now sufficiently culturally and politically autonomous to deserve indepence (in the civ sense). So let's lump them with APEC.

14. Japan - Put in with # 13?
I think that if you put Japan with APEC it will be a powerhouse. Not that that's necessarily a bad thing. But I think that their foreign policy interests are divergent. Japan is industrialized, the rest aren't. Yeah, they are dependent on others for many goods, but that will just mean that they'll have extensive trade routes with the US and others. What others would you have on their own besides Japan? (Asia's NOT my area of expertise)

15. Islamic Civ (Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iran, Bangladesh)
Bangladesh was known as East Pakistan for many years. They still share many cultural and religious links.

16. Rogue Nations (Iraq, N. Korea, Cuba)

We can't make all civs equally powerful. That's impossible. But we can make it reasonable equal. I think that the EU, US, BCommonwealth, CIS, and China will probably be the most powerful. As for the rest I think that they should be weak. It's not like Mercosur force poised to take over the world. I don't have strong feelings about the Japanese inclusion thing, but I am jsut trying to imagine how this will all play out. Some civs will have better coping strategies than others. CARICOM will have a economic ties to the US and Japan and APEC will have extensive ties. I think that their alliances will help also.
I understand the naming point as well. You're just trying to create usable names.... I can't think of any names for some areas (C. America and Africa) Possibilities?

When do you think that you're gonna have the basic layout ready?

[Timeline]

OK... I like this new version much better.

1. EU +Turkey

2. Eastern Europe + Baltics

3. US + Israel

4. China (+Vietnam, Laos)
“(Where does Mongolia go? It's a republic. It's not APEC material and not a rogue.)”

I don’t know. I will think about this for a while and come up with an answer.

5. CIS

“6. India (+Nepal, Sri Lanka)
Nepal has historical, geographical, cultural, religious (Hindu) and linguistic links to India.”

“7. Sub-Saharan Africa (minus South Africa)
I have no idea what org. there is that covers this. Not my area. Org. of African Unity has ALL African members, and so is too big, so I have no ideas....”

We’ll think of something, even is we have to call them “The African Alliance”

8. British Commonwealth (Britain, NZ, Australia, Canada, South Africa, Papua New Guinea)
“Sounds good to me. Don't even know if the village on the Falklands will be big enough to register. There's mostly just sheep there....”

How big is Stanley? It can fit if we want, and it could always be a small town. Falkland Islands could be a critical staging point if (and when) Britain wants to colonize the Antarctic or if they ever need to carry out “peace keeping” missions in B.A. j/k

“On Ireland. You tell me if there's enough room for two cities there. I think it's kind of **** to do Belfast instead of Dublin.”

LOL, okay I hear you. I didn’t necessarily want Belfast more than Dublin, I just didn’t want to give Great Britain I nice reason (or desire) to ever want to go to war with the EU because they have a city that close to their capital. But, what ya gonna do? Maybe the Civ 3 AI will be better than the Civ 2 one (IT BETTER BE!!!).

Yes, there’s enough room for both. Great Britain is 12 tiles, Ireland is 4.

“Ireland is a totally independent country and with the way nationalism is running in that country nowdays I think that they'd prefer the EU to Britain, but personally I don't care.”

Whatever you think is more realistic, but I agree with your last statement (after doing some research on it).

9. MercoSur (Brazil, Argentina, Uruguay, Paraguay, Chile)

“10. Andean Pact (Peru, Colombia, Ecuador, Venezuela, Bolivia and the Guayanas)
It was sort of my hope that by splitting them up that Brazil and the rest would engulf the other non-Mercosur countries. I don't know what they're relative strengths will be.”

Hmm, well I heard rumors a while back that US police in Ecuador were fighting off guerrillas that were crossing over from Colombia. Is this true? If it is, then I can see why your (extreme) breakdown of SA might be good. It would allow the US to fight a war against Colombia and Peru while not threatening the rest (Mexico and Brazil). Do you think this is realistic?

I am still am wondering if THREE CIVS for south America Alone is too much. But I do like Mexico Separate from the rest.

“11. Central America and Carribean Basin”

12. Arab League (Morroco, Algeria, Tunisia, Libya, Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Lebanon, and the Gulf States)

“13. APEC (from Indonesia to S. Korea, including Singapore)
I think that Singapore is much more like India in this case. A colony who has gained independence and is now sufficiently culturally and politically autonomous to deserve indepence (in the civ sense). So let's lump them with APEC.”

Okay.

“14. Japan - Put in with # 13?
I think that if you put Japan with APEC it will be a powerhouse. Not that that's necessarily a bad thing. But I think that their foreign policy interests are divergent. Japan is industrialized, the rest aren't. Yeah, they are dependent on others for many goods, but that will just mean that they'll have extensive trade routes with the US and others. What others would you have on their own besides Japan? (Asia's NOT my area of expertise)”

Maybe it would be best if we used the extra spot to break down Africa a little more.

Where Japan goes really depends on what the Civ 3 gameplay is like. It all comes down to if you can airlift into -airbases- or just cities. If you can only airlift into cities then nations like the US will need cities under there control around the world to simulate their ability to project control (aircraft carriers never did this well in Civ because they are too slow). Places like Kuwait, Seoul, Japan, and Jerusalem will be ideal for these reasons.

Now, on the other hand, if Civ 3 is an improvement besides just graphics, and it is possible to airlift into bases, then we will use that to simulate US military influence and Kuwait, Seoul, and Japan can go elsewhere (Arabs and Asians).

“But I think that their foreign policy interests are divergent. Japan is industrialized, the rest aren't.”

Perhaps, but what about there military? All their “foreign policy interests” that you mentioned are economic and not military. They are really helpless to enforce their Foreign policy except through laws and support from the US. In a scenario, they would be nothing but trading partners and a few US military units would be sitting on their island . . . as far as I can tell. In a scenario, Japan would must likely start trading with other civs, the US would get mad and tell them to embargo the civ, Japan would get mad and cancel the alliance and tell the US to get out.

I can’t see such a thing happening in real life. I think they would more realistically be represented by the US. After all, Japan is the US base of military operation in the Pacific.



“15. Islamic Civ (Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iran, Bangladesh)
Bangladesh was known as East Pakistan for many years. They still share many cultural and religious links.”

Okay, great, I see a war comming on between India and Pakistan sometime soon .

16. Rogue Nations (Iraq, N. Korea, Cuba)

We can't make all civs equally powerful. That's impossible. But we can make it reasonable equal. I think that the EU, US, BCommonwealth, CIS, and China will probably be the most powerful. As for the rest I think that they should be weak. It's not like Mercosur force poised to take over the world.

Yes, I agree. And if the player want to take charge of Mercosur, let him! It will be a challenge to convert his civ into a force to be reckoned with, while navigating diplomatic relations and trading in the mean time. The US will never know what hit em, lol. I agree.

No more time, I will be back!

[Timeline]

“When do you think that you're gonna have the basic layout ready?”

Well, right now I am placing cities and making alterations to the map. This stuff takes hours to do. I think I will have something for you to look at by next Sunday.


Come on people, we need ideas! If you have read this far you must be interested, speak up!

[Colon™]

Timeline, jsw, maybe you should leave out the British Commonwealth altogether since the main significance it has is symbolic. (it's just the remainder of the former Brittish empire) The largest impact it has on world politics is that of an international forum and the capability to suspend undemocratic members.
I also don’t believe it would be a viable civ (too disjointed) and it would be better the merge its subparts with the other civs.

Ireland and UK are definitely bound more tightly with EU than they are with the Commonwealth, since they share supranational structures (superior parliament, court of justice, an executive etc) with the other EU countries.

I’m aware that it would create problems with Canada and Australia, but I suggest to merge them with APEC and separate Japan from it. (it should be a viable civ)

Besides, I wouldn't underestimate the economic power of several APEC countries. South Korea and Taiwan and Malaysia have manufacturing industries rivalling that of the West. (particularily electronics, but SK is also a major shipbuilding and automobile manufacturing country)